Mandukya Karika Lecture 140 on 07-February-2024

Full Transcript

We are studying the last chapter of Gaudapada's commentary called Karikas. Gaudapada was practically summarizing what he wants to convey of his understanding of the Mandukya Upanishad, especially the second half of the seventh mantra, where it is said "Shantam, Shivam," then comes the word "Advaitam," non-duality. And the very foundation of non-duality is Ajati Vada. "Jati" means creation, sustenance, and dissolution. Ajati Vada means there is no creation at all. And it is absolutely true. How do we know? Because of the teachings of the scriptures and the confirmation of these scriptural teachings by God-realized souls. But as I have cautioned many times, we have to assume a particular attitude. What is it? From the standpoint of reality, Brahman, the perceiver, the object that is perceived, and the instrument through which that object is perceived are one and the same. And this is called causal relation. And without this, no creation can be experienced. Just as when we are in deep sleep, we see that there is no creation at all. Then what is the difference between deep sleep and Samadhi, final realization? In deep sleep, we have no problems because the mind itself is not there. The mind is both the cause as well as the effect, both bondage as well as liberation. But we are profoundly ignorant as to what is the real truth. We have no experience of untruth, neither do we have any experience of truth. But even the absence of duality or ignorance is a tremendous relief if at all any living creature gets any relief, peace, and complete recovery from the activities of both waking and dreaming. It is only possible in the deep sleep state. So let us remember, there are two viewpoints. We, of course, have only one viewpoint. We see the world, we feel we are the world, and we are part of the world. We see manyness, multitude, countless beings, objects. So this is called the state of ignorance. But at the same time, at the background, we have that non-dual, unchanging, pure consciousness as if it is going through these experiences. The nearest example we can give, not deep sleep, but the dream state. Whatever we have seen in the dream state, that is called the dream world. Upon waking up, neither there is a dream world and therefore there is no dream mind, therefore there is no dream experience and there is no bondage, there is no liberation at all. But that is not a complete example because in the waking state, only we dismiss it. But we must dismiss all three states, waking as well as dream, as well as deep sleep. So from the highest point of view, both of these, the creation is real. From the viewpoint of ignorance, the creation is totally unreal. From the viewpoint of the highest reality, both of them are only lay things, imaginations, thoughts, vrittis in the mind and this is a tremendous act of confession. That is what we are going to see. So let us keep in mind that really speaking, when Gaudapada speaks, he is speaking from the highest point of view and that highest point of view is only one mode of thinking within our minds. All philosophies vanish when we are in deep sleep, not to speak of Samadhi at all. So that is the point of view we have to keep.

From the highest point of view, there is no bondage, no creation because there is no mind, and so there is no liberation too, which we have discussed, I think, in the second chapter, 32nd verse—there is no bondage, no liberation, no aspirant, no spiritual effort, practice, and no liberation, nothing is there. It is all just from the viewpoint of the only dream or ignorance, or called Maya. So that is what he wants to tell. What we need to keep in mind is even the viewpoint that Atman is unborn, really there is no creation, is also only from the viewpoint of this ignorance, Samsara, mind; it is a thought. Mind always works only through opposite thoughts, heat and cold, likes and dislikes, birth and death, light and darkness, gain and loss, etc. So this bondage is also from the ignorance point of view. This liberation is also from the ignorance point of view. If both are points of view, the question that should come, if it doesn't come, is then why should we try to do even spiritual practice? Because from the viewpoint of duality, there is something called less, something called more, something called unhappiness, something called happiness, something called restlessness, something called restfulness. So from the viewpoint of even ignorance, there is an unhappy state and there is a happy state.

And so long as we are aware of the lower state of mind, our mind will not be restful, it will become restless, trying to seek higher and higher and higher types of happiness until it realizes two things. First, there is no happiness or unhappiness in any object. Second, I am the source of not happiness and unhappiness, but pure happiness. I am happiness, not that I possess either happiness or unhappiness. So these are the few points to keep in mind. And many of the following verses, shlokas, are only reiteration, so that the idea sticks into our minds. So 71, we have discussed in our last class. What is it? "Nakas chit jayatejeevaha." There is nothing called a living individual called jeeva in Vedantic language. A jeeva is never born. That means Atman is not born. "Sambhava asya na vidyate." "Sambhava" here means there is no cause because of which the Atman thinks it is born and thinks that it is not born as one, but as billions and billions and billions of living as well as the non-living. Because Atman is beyond all cause-effect relationships as we had discussed earlier. Therefore, "sambhavaha," even the remotest possibility doesn't exist. And then Gaudapada asserts, "etat tat uttamam satyam."

This is the highest truth from the viewpoint of reality, of course. "Etra kinchet na jayate." So in that highest state of truth, "na etra kinchet na jayate," nothing is born because even the idea that something can be born, that even that idea also will not be there.

Now we proceed to the next verse 72. Then the question naturally that comes is, you are giving big claims that the Atman is never born. There is Atman but it is never born because even to say something is good or bad, that something must exist. Even the very existence of the Atman can never be posited because it is not an object of thought at all. Then something is beyond the mind. Even the question whether it is born, whether it exists, whether it is or not, that is, all these is, is not, are also thoughts in the mind only. That is what Gaudapada wants to convey to us. "Chittas pandita meva idam." And we have to add the word "sarva" in the 72nd verse

चित्तस्पन्दिकमेवेदं ग्राह्यग्राहकवद्द्वयम् ।

चित्तं निर्विषयं नित्यमसंगं तेन कीर्तितम् ॥ ७२ ॥

cittaspandikamevedaṃ grāhyagrāhakavaddvayam |

cittaṃ nirviṣayaṃ nityamasaṃgaṃ tena kīrtitam || 72 ||

72. This perceived world of duality, characterised by the subject-object relationship, is verily an act of the mind. The mind, again, (from the standpoint of Reality) is without touch with any object (as it is of the nature of Ātman). Hence it is declared to be eternal and unattached.

This world of duality, characterized by this subject-object relationship and perceived by the observer, is verily an act of the mind. The mind, again, is never in contact with any object. Hence, the mind is declared to be eternal and untouched. (That which is eternal and untouched is nothing else but the Atman, the mind which Sri Ramakrishna used to call shuddha man. Pure mind is nothing but pure Atman.) As Gaudapada so beautifully puts it and wants us to understand, says all these ideas, whether there is creation, whether there is no creation, etc., are all thoughts in the mind. But remember, there are some thoughts which are very useful for our life. Even the most ignorant person doesn't want to suffer, doesn't want to die, doesn't want to be ignorant. Even an ignorant person doesn't want to be ignorant. Even a fool, as it is said so beautifully, if you call a fool a fool, he will be enraged. He would like to kill you. But a wise man will never do that. If you call a wise man a fool, he not only will not react, he will simply say you are not speaking the full truth. "I am not only a fool, not only an ignorant person, much, much more ignorant and foolish than you could even imagine in your remotest dreams." That is what he will say. Such is the great glory of ignorance. There was a Chinese philosopher who used to often exclaim that once he was sitting on the banks of a pond and there were so many flowers there and some butterflies were moving, flying from one flower to the other flower and he was particularly attracted towards one butterfly. As he was a great philosopher, a man of concentration, he was completely identified with the butterfly. Then being a philosopher, he started to wonder, "Am I a philosopher thinking that this butterfly is hovering among the flowers or am I a butterfly thinking that I am a philosopher?" Like what is called a forgetful professor. Once he went to an airport and you know revolving doors entered into it. Now he forgot whether he should go inside or go outside. So this is called philosophy. Now, what is the point? That this mind is pure but this world of duality. Several points, very beautiful points. First of all, what are we experiencing? Duality, I and everything else. And this duality, just to remind ourselves, consists of three types of differences. The first difference is that there are different species of things, different types of mosquitoes, different types of mangoes, different types of cakes, different types of trees, everything, not two, but millions and millions of variations are there. That is called differentiation. Vijatiya Bhedaha. "Jati" means the same species, but for a simple example, there is an apple tree and there is a mango tree. These two are completely trees, true, but two separate trees. This is called "Vijatiya Bheda." Then suppose there are two mango trees, they belong to the same species, but one is small, one is big. One, the fruit of one tree is not so sweet but the other one is extraordinarily fragrant and sweet. This is called "Sajjatiya Bheda." And imagine the third type of differentiation. One mango tree is there, there are leaves, there are branches, there are blossoms, there are fruits, small branches, there is a trunk, there is a root, etc., etc. An infinite number of variations are there. This is called differentiation within one object, "Svagata Bheda." And Brahman is completely free from that.

Why did I mention this subject? Because it is the very nature of this mind. grāhyagrāhakavaddvayam. The moment the mind starts to work, I am the subject, you are the object. The first thing that the mind divides itself, I am the mind, I am the subject. And I am one subject. I am seeing an infinite number of things. Things are many, all different, but I, the experiencer, am one only. But what is experienced is many. So this is called the subject-object relationship. Earlier, we have seen that the mind cannot be proved to exist if there were to be no object. And the object cannot be proved to exist without the mind. They go together. Subject and object always go together. And then there is somebody who is without involving, observing, called Sakshi, the witness. So in this world, there are three things: the subject, the object, and that which is witnessing without getting involved, both the subject and the object. And this is the witness that keeps the memory, like somebody noting down. You know, in classrooms, sometimes teachers from outside are brought in because a teacher will have what is called subjective likes and dislikes. So this outside teacher, he just witnesses. He doesn't get involved in likes and dislikes. So his judgment may be more reliable, more impartial. So like that, the witness, the participant, and the experienced objects, they will be there. So this is what he is telling, that whatever we call the world is in a world of relationships. And all relationships, I am the object, I am the subject, etc., are only thoughts in the mind. "Chitta Spandita." Spandana means what you call vibrations, mentations, thoughts. Whether we are happy, unhappy, it could be imagination. It could be one's greatest desire to attain goals or rationality or logic and faith and happiness, unhappiness. Everything are thoughts only, but different types of thoughts. So one is called a thought, another is called a feeling. But even a feeling or emotion is nothing but a thought. "Chitta Spandita meva idam sarvam." We have to supply that word sarvam, whatever we are experiencing, until we are liberated. Even to say, "I think about God," that God also is an object. I am thinking of Krishna or Jesus or Buddha, that is also a thought only. We are not thinking of Rama, Krishna, Jesus, Buddha. We are thinking our understanding of Rama, Krishna, Jesus, Buddha. So there are many people, they don't like these what is called avatars or incarnations. They like devils too much. So Saturn means their favourite. So this is called grahya, grahaka. Grahya means the subject experience. Rahaka means whatever is being experienced. Dwaya means duality. And in this duality, the experiencer is but one. But the experienced are infinite numbers. That is according to the Advaita Vedanta. But according to Sankhya, as many experiences or subjects are there, as there are thinking minds. We discussed these things, "chittam nirvesayam nityam." But what is the reality? This mind is really, truly speaking, nityam. Not even for one millisecond, is it complete. It doesn't become a subject, doesn't become an experiencer, etc. Nirvishayam, it has nothing to do because it is pure. That means this is the pure Atman. Therefore, "asangam tena kirtitam." Because of this reason. "Tena" means by this reason. Because of this reason. What is the reason? Truly speaking, this chittam has nothing to do. Therefore, it is well praised, sung everywhere as what? "Asangam." Completely attachmentless. Non-attached. What is non-attached? That is also a thought. But it is a very noble thought. That is what Gaudapada wants to convey. This mind is none other than the pure mind.

Gaudapada wants to equate, like Sri Ramakrishna, that a pure mind is nothing but pure Atman. But the moment we fall into this illusion of ignorance in the net of Maya, in that very moment, then the mind will not be pure. Even the purest thought in the mind is only an impure thought. Any second thought, however noble that thought is, it is nothing but impure. This is a point I mentioned earlier. You have to note it down. Supposing you take a piece of gold and bring it into contact with what is called a diamond. So diamond is different. Gold is different. Both are valuable stones only or metals. But even they are impure because both are totally separate. So we have to note down impurity means not only dirty, stainy, dusty thing, but even the best of two separate objects. However pure they are, when they come so near that there is a possibility of mistaking them, and that will be what is called impurity. But from the highest point of view, Advaita point of view, there is no Advaitam. There is no second. And therefore, even though it appears to be almost one, but it is only really one. There is no second at all. That is what Gaudapada wants. So what is the essence? We have to understand through this 72nd that the whole thing is nothing but a thought in the mind. This is what we have been studying. What Gaudapada had taken nearly more than 150 Karikas. Because this fourth one has got 100. Second one has got, I think, 38. Third one has got 48. And first one, I think around 12 or something like that. The whole thing together, what is the essence? What Amrutabindu Upanishad is telling us, the mind is of two types, Shuddham and Ashuddham. And what is Shuddham and Ashuddham? "Mana eva karanam bandha mokshayoh." For manushyas, mind alone is causing both the bondage and liberation. The idea of bondage is an idea. The idea of liberation is also an idea. For that, the dream example is a beautiful example. So long as we are dreaming, somebody praises me, somebody criticizes me. And I feel like giving a good blow or I feel very happy. Please come to my house, etc. But as soon as we wake up, we find that it is both the person who praised and the person who criticized. And the reactions that happen in the mind are all nothing but pure imaginations in my mind, in one's mind. So this is what he wants. This is the essence we have to carry of this 72nd. Mind alone is the root cause of both the bondage and liberation. But we have to keep one point in mind. This mind can help us to evolve slowly into higher and higher states. And that is where spiritual practice is very necessary. And that is what we have to think about. So Shankaracharya says very beautifully. He says that the objects and their relation with the mind are perceived only in the state of ignorance. As long as we are under the spell of Maya, so subject and object are perfectly real and reality. So we have to accept it so long as we are under ignorance and discriminate between what leads us to a better state of mind. Even when an ignorant person perceives, the mind to be associated with the subject-object relationship. But the mind in its true nature is non-dual, unattached and absolute. In other words, pure Atma. The mind is in reality free from all ideas of the subject-object relationship. How do we know this is a truth? Because deep sleep conclusively proves that that is the truth. The idea of the object is a superimposition upon the mind of the ignorance. In fact, I can put it in a different way. The mind and ignorance, mind and Maya are not two separate things. Because when we are using language, I am caught in the net of Maya. But who is telling Maya and mind? Our mind, impure mind is absolutely one and the same. When we say mind, it should be understood as Maya. When we say Maya, it should be understood as mind. And what is the nature of this mind? It is limitation by time, space and causation, Desha, Kaala and Vastu Parichhedaha.

So, this is what Gaudapada wants to say. In fact, the mind is very pure. That is why the sadhana, the spiritual practices, wash the mind, removing all the dirt that has accumulated since many, many, many births. As the mind becomes pure, these ideas become extremely great. How do they do? I am just giving you a hint. Earlier also, many times I told you, many times I will repeat the same thing. That is to say, so long as we are ignorant, scriptures are very helpful. So, our scriptures, Hindu scriptures, are called Vedas. And these Vedas are divided into practically what is called a lower part of the Veda called rituals, and a higher part of the Veda which is called pure knowledge. Now, what is the relationship? The scriptures are telling about ritual. It told Dasaratha, who did not have a child. He was longing for a child. It is called Putra Kameshti. You do this particular ritual, you will get children. And then he did it. He got it done and he got four children. And it is absolutely true. When a person goes on having faith, first we all start with a kind of scepticism. But who knows, let me try this. And the person does this ritual. And to his great surprise or shock, he gets the result. Then some 50% the mind is coming. Maybe the scripture is telling me the truth. Maybe if I do some rituals, my other desires also can be fulfilled. In fact, our whole Puranas are nothing but this Karmakanda. And then the surprising fact is this world is full of warfare between the demons and gods. The same thing is happening within each one of our minds. But in Puranas, even Bhagavad Gita, the Kurukshetra war is between the good people, good thoughts and evil thoughts. Kauravas represent what you call demonic tendencies. And the Pandavas represent the divine tendencies. It is a constant warfare until we get rid of even the best qualities. Because even the best qualities like Punyam, it is also a cause of bondage. Because for the exhaustion or experience of the results of these things, we have to be reborn. So this is how Swami Vivekananda interprets the allegorical story. The fight is between each one of our minds. So in the Puranas, the surprising fact is, the gods who behaved very well in the beginning were favoured by God. And they got higher positions and they start enjoying. And this enjoyment is the greatest Maya. And slowly they forget God. They become egotistic. How do you know? How do I know? Because in Kena Upanishad, we explored this idea. There was a war between gods and demons. And the gods won. And they forgot God. And they became very egotistic. We obtained victory because of our superiority. And immediately, God appeared to them in the form of a very ferocious, strange, unrecognizable being called Yaksha. And they all wanted to find out because they got frightened. The very fact that they got frightened means that the very foundation of your egotism is very shaky. Until this time, nobody can make us frightened. But as soon as this being appeared, their very fear shook them to the very roots. And then Indra, he sent first fire, Agni Devata. Then he sent Vayu Devata. And they could not do anything. Agni could not burn a small bit of dried grass. And Vayu could not move. The wind god could not move even the same bit of grass. God is very conservative, you know. He did not bring a second blade of grass. Same blade of grass is lying, you move it. And then Indra realized that who is this Agni Devata? Another form of Indra. Vayu Devata, another form of Indra. That means he was very proud, egotistic. But now his ego was completely crushed. That's why that being acted like a Guru. Guru's only function is minimizing the egotism until it is completely destroyed. And a Guru makes the disciple surrender oneself at the feet of Guru. Then only the Guru becomes God. Until that time, it is a relationship. So Indra goes and he was a changed being. He surrendered. And then the divine reveals like a mother, loving mother, Uma Haimavati, and teaches. It is Brahman. You are Brahman. It is Brahman who obtained victory. That means it is Brahman manifesting as Indra, Vayu, Agni that obtained victory. Otherwise, if you forget that fact, then you would be crushed. You will become a demon, anatma.

So that is the story we have to remember here. That mind and Maya are not two separate things. Mind is limited by time, space, and object. And limitation is called Maya. Maya is another name for limitation. So here Gaudapada wants to tell us that the mind without Maya is none other than Atman. Another name for Atman is called mind. But that is the type of what is called goal. This is the final destination. Make the mind pure. That is what Patanjali Rishi means. Yogaha chittavruti nirodaha. So if once the person can make the mind pure, nirodaha means purity, through sadhana as indicated by the Guru, and that person will soon realize God. Now, this was the teaching in the 72nd verse, Karika. Now an objection comes. As I mentioned earlier, don't imagine from somewhere somebody pops up and then challenges Gaudapada or Shankaracharya. No. So Gaudapada was teaching his students and those students were highly qualified students, and it was a teaching given to them. Now that I, myself, you all are listening doesn't mean we are all qualified. But his highest truths can be heard by anybody, whether in the form of teachings of Bhagavad Gita or Sri Ramakrishna or Holy Mother and Swami Vivekananda or Ramana Maharshi. We have to go on listening to them because if you squeeze the essence of everybody, whether Jesus said, Buddha said, or only from different viewpoints, that your real nature is uncontaminated, you are none other than Brahma. You are God. This is the essence of everything. Sarvam Kalvidam Brahma. So with an objector, our own doubts that crop up. Sir, if you are telling the world is nothing but consisting of Maya, so all this perception of duality is Maya, but I have some problem with this. What is that problem? So this world consists of this duality, this ignorance consists of what? Consists of there are good people, there are evil people. We should not talk about evil people. There are good people, but the good people can be classified into two categories. Those who are really aspirants and those who want something from God and those who want God, and most of the so-called aspirants are those who want something from God, not they don't want God. You just give what I want and make yourself disappear, take off. That is our attitude because in the presence of God, we are frightened. Even we are frightened that we have to share with him whatever he gives us. Oh my God, I told you once there was a devotee. She was the wife of a good devotee and they had a small girl, and the girl was brought to me, and I gave that girl. She was only I think two years old, a very good piece of chocolate, and the girl grabbed it and immediately I stretched my hand and said, oh darling, will you give me a little bit? She turned towards the mother, hid the chocolate, and started crying. We are like that. If God wants to take a little bit, tiny mini, we don't even want to show him. So this is one type of class of good people. But there are other people. They want only nothing but God, and funnily I made the statement that the most selfish people in the world because the first type of good people, they only want a little bit of what God can give. And the second type of people, they want nothing less than the whole of God. I want to become God. Take off with you. Aham Brahmasmi. They will not be satisfied with anything less. Fun apart, the second type of people for whom these teachings are being given and even the second type of people, they can be bhaktas, devotees, or they can be more intellectual people. If somebody is more emotional, then their path is devotion. If somebody is more intellectual, their path is this particular path.

So, let us not forget Gaudapada was teaching to such kind of aspirants, and just because we happen to have the text and it is a marvellous text, so we are studying it. So even though for intellectual satisfaction development, we are studying this one. But our path is not this path. It is only surrender to what we call Saguna Brahma or the manifest Brahma. In this understanding, we go. So the objection comes. What is the objection? That is doubts within our own minds. What is the doubt? That if this world is Maya, then what are we to make about first scripture, then the Guru, then the disciple? Because if everything is Maya, this Shastra, the Guru, the student, they also fall under the same unreality. For that, the answer is given, beautiful answer is given. The answer is for an imagined snake, an imagined mongoose is good enough, more than good enough. This I will remind you, Swami Yathishwaranandji Maharaj, he used to very often quote this one. There was a man who used to always carry a covered cage with him wherever he went. And it was a very curious sight. So some people asked him, Sir, what is it you are carrying? Because it used to be covered. And he said, there is a mongoose with him. I always carry the mongoose. And they asked, why do you carry a mongoose? Because I am terribly frightened of snakes. I see snakes everywhere. Then they said, do you see snakes here now? He said, yes, plenty of snakes. Of course, he forgot. He did not mention diplomatically. You are those snakes. Now I see snakes everywhere. Then they said, there are no snakes here. So how does your mongoose help get rid of the fear of snakes? He said, those snakes are all in my mind only. I know very well that they are not real. Then how does your mongoose help you? So he uncovered the cage and said, they showed there was nothing there. He said, I am carrying an imaginary mongoose to counter my imaginary fears of snakes. If you can understand this, you understand the whole of Gaudapada absolutely, fantastically, realistically. What is it? That the whole thing, bondage is in the mind. Liberation is also in the mind. So, so long as we are convinced this bondage is really real, so long what we need to do is we require a Guru. So long as we think, that is, not that my Guru told me this world is unreal. No, he told me it is unreal. But my experience, direct experience is, it is very real for me. And there are snakes and there are problems. There are many undesirable things and I am undergoing a lot of suffering for them. Scripture comes to our aid and Guru comes to our aid and the teaching also comes to our aid. So long as we are in ignorance, scripture is true, Guru is true, and my studentship is also true. This is what Gaudapada wants to drive into our minds. And for this, an example is given. Even though just now I told you an example of the imaginary snakes. The antidote for that is an imaginary mongoose. So we have dreams. In the dream, somebody is threatening me and I pray to my Guru. My Guru comes and then he gives a big blow to me and I wake up. Did the Guru help me? Absolutely. So long as it was a dream, so the Guru was true. The people who are troubling me are true, and the Guru giving me big upadesha is also true. And as a result, I did not solve the problem. The Guru did not solve my problem. The Guru dissolved the problem itself. He woke me up from this imaginary dream, and when I woke up, there was no problem at all. This is the essence of the 73rd.

योऽस्ति कल्पितसंवृत्या परमार्थेन नास्त्यसौ ।

परतन्त्राभिसंवृत्या स्यान्नास्ति परमार्थतः ॥ ७३ ॥

yo'sti kalpitasaṃvṛtyā paramārthena nāstyasau |

paratantrābhisaṃvṛtyā syānnāsti paramārthataḥ || 73 ||

73. That which exists on the strength of the illusory experiences does not, really speaking, exist. That which, again, is said to exist on the strength of the views supported by the other schools of thought, does not, really speaking, exist.

Gaudapada has made two statements here. yo'sti. This world is there. And why do I think? Why do you think? Samrutya means Maya, ignorance. This is all a result of ignorance. Kalpita means it is created, imagined. Paramarthena, in truth, in reality. nāstyasau. This problem of samsara does not exist. No, but there are some people, most people accepting Advaitins. Every other school of philosophy, what do they say? Every other school of philosophy, whether it is Visishtadvaita, Dvaita and whether it is Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, every ism, what do they say? This world is real. Problems are real. Solutions are also real. That means there is a creation. There is a sustenance. And there is a lower state. There is a higher state. And there are good people. There are bad people. There is less happiness. There is higher happiness. All these are completely true. This is what the other schools of philosophy posit. But Paramarthata, in reality, they do not exist. What is Gaudapada trying to tell us? The truth is there is no world. But so long as you are thinking that there is a truth, so long there is Guru is real. Problem is real. Guru is real. Scripture is real. The scripture interpreted by the teacher is also real. And a real, the thing helps us to get rid of that real problem. The real thorn helps us to get rid of the other real smaller thorns. So like our dream, somebody comes and helps us. So the helper is like a big thorn trying to get rid of all other thorns. This is the truth. So this is what Gaudapada wants to say. That this is where their doubt comes. That if according to you the creation is not there, then what is the role of the scripture, the teacher and then the teaching? That is what he wants to say. And this objection is mainly from Vaisheshika school of thought who raised the point in the last stanza. There is a beautiful reminiscence of Swami Vivekananda. He was in high mood. He comes to Holy Mother and then he tells, Ma, nowadays my mind is raising so much that I see everything as illusion. I am only paraphrasing what he actually said. This is not actually what he said, but my paraphrasing. I immediately, quickly, Holy Mother responds, My son, please do not, Amake Udiyinah, in Bengali, beautiful. Do not throw me into the sky by blowing upon me. That means do not destroy me. Immediately Swamiji makes a frustration and says, Ma, if I deny the very lotus feet of the Guru, even my statement that this is all illusion doesn't stand at all. That is to say, until we claim our real nature, until then we are in the state of ignorance. So long as we are in this state of ignorance, creation is real, sustenance is real, destruction is real, Guru is real, scripture is real and spirituality is real. Practice of spirituality is real. Slow progress in spirituality is real. All these, both bondage and liberation, everything is real from the viewpoint of ignorance. But once I know who I am, everything, we don't even remember. At one time I was in a state of ignorance, but now I know that I awoke. The question of I was in a dream and I awoke. Even that memory will not be there because there is no mind, there is no duality, there is no thinker. I just I am.