Mandukya Karika Lecture 138 on 24-January-2024

Full Transcript (Not Corrected)

We have been discussing the fourth chapter of the Mandukya Upanishad, Alatha Shanti Prakaranam. In our last class, we have been dealing with the 64th Karika. Now, almost until the end of this chapter, Gaudapada wants to establish through Tarka, through logic, through reasoning that really Brahman is not born, or Atman is not born, and that is a fact we have to realize I am not a Jeeva. That is called Jeevan Mukti. Because if I truly understand that I am not a Jeeva, what is it? Jeeva means what? I am the body. I am the mind plus I am the Chaitanyam or consciousness associated with the body and mind. And through this body and mind, we are experiencing the three states of Jagrat, Swapna, and Sushupti - the waking, the dream, as well as the deep sleep states.

When I awaken to the fact that not that I am Brahman nor I am going to be Brahman but I was never anything other than Brahman, that is called birthlessness, ajati, asambhava, and this is what mainly he wants to say. In fact, this is the absolute truth.

How do we understand this from the standpoint of bhakti or duality? Say, for example, a Vaishnava or a Shakta or a Shaiva, any devotee, what does the devotee understand? That there is God, He is greater than me, I am coming from Him, I was created by Him but I am not separate from Him like a pot is not separate from the clay, like the ornaments are not separate from the gold, etc.

But even if I go to Vaikuntha, I want to be ever separate. Why? This is an erroneous misunderstanding. Born of what? In this world, we know only one thing that if I want to have some pleasure, I must have an object. So, I must come into contact with some object. So, a sweet, for example, I love sweets and I want to enjoy a sweet. But you know what happens? If the sweet becomes me or I become one with the sweet, that would be the last time we enjoy each other. No, that is not the truth. Forever, I have to be separate, and sweet has to be separate, and every time I want to enjoy, so I have to feel the pangs of separation in the form of hunger, thirst, disease or any difficulty, any sorrow, any misery falls under this category.

But what happens? I want eternal happiness. So, if I can please the Divine Lord, I can go to Vaikuntha or Kailasa or Devi Loka, whatever it is, it doesn't matter. We do not understand what do we mean by Vaikuntha, Devi Loka, or Kailasa. What is it? Eternal happiness, eternal existence, and eternal knowledge that I am in the presence of God, with God. Now, the moment we use the word eternal, how can there be anything that is temporary, must be a broken thing.

It is very difficult for us to have a conception of this idea that whatever is born and it undergoes change. Even though we are experiencing this all the time, a baby is born and it has grown already, it has changed already from the very moment of conception until the birth. So many things, every second the change is taking place. So, anything that was not there comes into being, it goes on changing. So, that cannot be eternal. Changing something cannot be eternal. And that is the first fact.

Second fact, how do we know something is changing? There must be something, unchanging witness, which is not one with the changing object. Then only the unchanging witness of the changing object comes to know this object is changing. There, in fact, that is the witness and the witness are diametrically opposed. One is changing, which is temporary. Another is unchanging, which is completely eternal. Eternal means what? Unchanging. Another word for unchanging is eternal.

So, what is Vaikuntha then? If I go to Vaikuntha also and there is a time when I was not in Vaikuntha, and there is a time when I will reach Vaikuntha, then how do they count the days? Perhaps there also a sunrise, sunset. Perhaps there also a winter, severe winter, severe summer. We do not know because changing means that is the idea. So, mild changes into wild, wild changes into mild. So, all this change means anything turning into something else is called a change.

Now, look at the fun. Suppose God is smiling at you. So, will He be smiling all the time at you? Then you have to understand it is a photograph. But the photograph also has a birth and after that, it becomes old. Perhaps you have to buy Photoshop and edit it to restore it for some time. So, everything that is changeable is just the opposite of eternity, which is non-eternal. That is what this world is.

What am I trying to convey to you or what is Gaudapada trying to convey? Birth means death and growth. Shat urmi, sixfold changes. And if your nature is being born, etc., then it is impossible for you to get Moksha. The same thing in Vedantic principles. Suppose Jeeva's nature is changeful, birthful, deathful, then if that is its nature, no law in this world can change its nature. So, only unborn will be unborn, born will be born.

Maya, if it is real, that is called Maya. Another word for Maya is something which is changing all the time, that is called Maya. If Maya is real, you can't even call it Maya. So, Gaudapada wants to establish that as if everything is happening. For that, he gives two beautiful examples. What is it called? Jagrat and Swapna. We have three states of experience, but he only finds two. Why not the third one? What is the third one? Deep sleep. In deep sleep, nobody feels I am bound. Nobody says I am Jeeva. Nobody says I am bound. Nobody says I am suffering. Nobody says I am enjoying. There is no duality at all. It is a temporary, seemingly Advaitic state. But it is not Advaitic because it has a beginning. From the waking point of view, the deep sleep state is a beginning and it is an end and it is also changing. But so long as we are in the deep sleep state, then I neither know myself nor do I know anything else because there is no gross body or subtle body. Only causal body is there.

Even from our day-to-day experience, we have to come to that state. I am all the time declaring I am the waker, I am the dreamer, I was the dreamer, and I was the deep sleeper. So, I was not changing and that I has nothing to do according to the Advaita Vedantic principle. Whatever we witness is not we. We have discussed this. This is only to reinforce our understanding and our remembrance.

So, in the 63rd Karika, Swapna Druk Pracharan Swapne. Druk means the seer. Seer means here you, me, who has created the dream state and witnessing this dream state. That is called Swapna Druk. Druk means here Swapne Pracharan. Experiencing, moving about in the dream state. So, he is running to the east, west, south, north, and all the four corners and he is jumping up and down sometimes. This is why ten directions. According to the Indian concept, not four but ten directions are there. East, west, south, north and then northeast, southeast, southwest, etc. And then above and below.

What does he do? What do we do? As in the waking state, we go on seeing all the ten directions. There are four types of beings are there. It means every creation, the whole creation. Whole creation is divided into two. Living and non-living. Here only the living is mentioned. And all living beings are classified into four types. Andaja, Swetaja, Jarayuja, Udbija. Those who are born of eggs. Those who are born of moisture. Those who are born from the womb. And those who break open the earth like plants, etc. It does not matter. This is only a description. So, more or less all living creatures can be divided into four categories. And we are seeing it in our waking state. And exactly the same thing we are also seeing in the dream state also.

Now, what Gaudapada wants to say in the 64th, a very important point. And if we can remember that point, the following Karikas will become very easy for us.

When we are dreaming, analyse the dream. What is it? Before dreaming, we have one mind. And when we enter into the dream state, this one mind divides itself into one's own self. In each one of our dreams, we retain our own peculiar particular individuality. And we see our neighbours, our friends, our enemies, all these four types of beings which are born and non-living, the mountains and the rivers, etc., etc. Exactly the same thing.

Now, if we analyse upon waking up, what happens? They were all merely thoughts. Thoughts mean the creator is the mind, the experiencer is the mind. Just as I cannot be a seer of a tree if the tree doesn't exist. And I do not exist, but the tree exists. Then the tree cannot be experienced. We depend upon each other. I am there, tree is not there. I cannot see or experience the tree. The tree is there, I am not there. So the subject and the object, the experiencer and the experienced, both are completely dependent upon each other. And here we have to remember the Vedantic principle. Whatever is dependent, that is the first characteristic of Mithya, whatever is changing.

And what follows by the conclusion that everything is changing? There is somebody who is an unchanging witness and because of whom everything is perceived, experienced as changing. The knowledge everything is changing is possible only when there is an unchanging witness or perceiver. Without Karta, there is no Kriya. Without Kriya, there is no Karta. So this is the second factor. What is the first factor? Everything is changing. What is the second factor? So we depend, our mind depends, mind itself becomes the seer, experiencer, and mind itself becomes the experienced.

So if the seer is not there, the mind is not there in the form of the seer, there cannot be any experience. If there is no seen, then also there is no seer. Because seer is an epithet that comes only when there is something being seen. And the seen also comes into existence when somebody is seeing. So they are totally dependent. So what is the second principle? Whatever is interdependent, that is not real. Because Brahman is Sarvatantra Svatantra. That is the second thing that we have. These two principles Gaudapada wants to establish through these following many, many Karikas.

In the 64th, in our last class, this is what we read.

स्वप्नदृक्चित्तदृश्यास्ते न विद्यन्ते ततः पृथक् ।

तथा तद्दृश्यमेवेदं स्वप्नदृक्चित्तमिष्यते ॥ ६४ ॥

svapnadṛkcittadṛśyāste na vidyante tataḥ pṛthak |

tathā taddṛśyamevedaṃ svapnadṛkcittamiṣyate || 64 ||

64. These (beings) which are objects of the mind of the dreamer have no existence apart from his mind. Similarly, this mind of the dreamer is admitted to be the object of perception of the dreamer only. (Therefore the mind of the dreamer is not separate from the dreamer himself)

What does it mean? These beings, that is the entire world, which are the objects of the mind of the dreamer, in the dreamer, me or you, as the perceiver of the dream world, have no independent existence apart from the mind. Because the mind itself has become. If there is no mind, as in deep sleep, there is no seer, there is no seen. But in both the waking and dream, there is a seer and there is a seen. And there is absolutely no difference between waking and dream. That is what he wants to prove.

Just as upon waking up, we find that the whole dream world is in my imagination and depending upon my mind. If I am a very happy person in my dream, that is my creation. And if I am a very unhappy person, that is also my real creation. If I see somebody is creating trouble for me, that is my imagination. And if I see that he or she is giving me a tremendous amount of pleasure or happiness, that is also my creation. If somebody gives some rich uncle in my dream, a multi-billionaire dies. And my bank balance, because I am the only nephew or niece. And I will be very happy. But when we wake up, not even a little bit of that money is seen. And if you go to the bank to verify, there will be a very much likelihood of heart attack. So the same thing. Now apply whatever we are seeing in this Jagrat Avastha. The entire Jagrat Avastha becomes negated in the dream world. Therefore, each negates the other. Jagrat negates the Swapna. Swapna negates the Jagrat.

But then what is permanent? There is something which is witnessing. I was in the dream state. I was in the waking state. I was in the deep sleep state. And that 'I' is not changing. Now focus upon that 'I.' And to explain this, what to explain? Mind is the root cause of all problems. Manah Eva Manushyanam Karanam Bandha Mokshayo There is no dream world without the mind. There is no waking world without the mind. And in a way of speaking, there is no deep sleep also without the mind. How come? Because the mind has two powers, its own Maya powers. One is called the enveloping, covering up power called Avarana Shakti. Another is the projecting power called Vikshepa Shakti. But in the deep sleep state, only the Vikshepa Shakti is not there. But the Avarana Shakti is there. What is the Avarana Shakti? I do not know who I am. I don't see the world. That is absolutely true. But I should be Brahman because I have gone beyond time, space, and causation. But no, because it is a state of profound ignorance. That is why Prajna. Adhrishta Roopena Prajna Marvellous idea. Profoundly ignorant. I do not even know that I was in the deep sleep state. Only upon waking up, I have to speak in the past tense. I did not know anything. I was very happy. And that is why in English there is a saying, ignorance is bliss. Yes, if somebody has decided to finish you off, comes with a sharp knife and sitting and joking and talking with you and you are also enjoying the talk. Why? Ignorance is bliss. So this is what we have to understand.

With this understanding, what do we understand? Swapna Druk. So in Swapna, dream state, there is a dreamer. Swapna Druk means dreamer. Chitta Drushya, whatever he is perceiving is called Chitta Drushya. Thoughts in the mind. Navidhyante Tatha Prudak. They depend upon each other. Tatha Tadrushyameva Idam Swapna Druk Chitta Mishyate. The mind of the dreamer is admitted to be the object of perception of the dreamer only. That means when you are dreaming, nobody else knows excepting you that this is my dream. Not even a wife or a husband or children or parents. Nobody else knows what we are dreaming excepting ourselves. Fine. Can this truth be applied to waking? Yes. So when I see a tree and when you see the same tree, are we looking at the same tree? Absolutely no. So a father looks at his grown-up daughter in one way. And another girlfriend looks at the same person in a different way. A husband looks at this young woman in another way. And a passer-by looks at this woman in an entirely another way. And a hungry tiger looks at the same being in an entirely different way. We are all living in our own individual world in the waking state. But we are not realizing it. Just as in the dream, we think everybody is looking at the same tree. And in the waking state, everybody is looking at the same tree. The tree is there. But the way we look at the tree, either in the waking or dream, are completely individual, peculiar.

And just as the dream is very, very private, our view of the world is also entirely private. And just one illustration. A drunkard goes to Sri Ramakrishna. The way Sri Ramakrishna looks at the world or at the drunkard and the way drunkard looks at Sri Ramakrishna are totally different. How? When Sri Ramakrishna looks... So once he was passing in Calcutta and he looked at the drunkards who are very happy. There are happy drunkards. There are destructive drunkards. Unhappy drunkards. So many varieties are there. Drink enhances whatever feeling is there before. So when he was looking, he himself was inspired and he was in bliss. And the drunkards looked at him and said, 'My God, I think I have only drunk very less. This man must have drunk much, much more.' So no two persons, no two beings of a mosquito looks at you and how I look at myself or you look at yourself, how anything else looks at yourself is totally, totally private and individual.

And that is a fact Gaudapada wants to say that everything depends upon our mind. In other words, if my mind is a happy mind, I'll be a happy person, whether in waking or in a dream, not to speak of dreamless. And if my mind is unhappy, I will be an unhappy person. I will have unhappy dreams or nightmarish dreams. So also I will have nightmarish experience, daymarish experiences. I don't know whether any such English word exists. So that is what Gaudapada wants to drill into our minds. And this is the way we have to understand it.

Now 64th, this is what. So out of this, we can derive some important points.

Point number one. So the seer mind is different from the seeing dream objects. I as the seer is different from what I see. We know whatever we experience is not me.

Second, so this tells that whatever dreamland of dream, although it is within, we know that it is within the mind, is regarded as an external location. What does this sentence mean? When we are having a dream and you felt it is very hot and you require a little bit of breeze, you go out for a walk to the nearby garden. Where is the garden now? Is it inside your mind or outside your mind? So long as you are dreaming, you think it is outside. When you wake up, you know it is completely within me. The entire world is within me. Like it is said, Kaali Rudhare Brahmaanda Bhandav. The whole world is just like the whole dream world is within each one of the Jeeva. So the whole Jagrat Prapancha and also Sushrupti Prapancha, Kaali Rudhare, the Divine Mother, Prakruti. That is what we have to understand.

So that is the second one. But we will not understand this fact that what we call external and internal, both are our thoughts in the mind only. There is no truth about it.

What is the third principle? So there are so many varieties of objects. This is called Dwayabhasam, which we have seen earlier. The whole number of living creatures form the content of the dream. And that is what we say, I saw many, many things. But in reality, that many is only my creation.

What is the fourth principle? That we are only talking about sentient beings. But we have to talk about everything. Whatever pictures that come, we have to talk about.

So, what is the essence of this Karika? It is the mind alone which imagines itself to have assumed the forms of many diversified beings. Again, that very mind alone becomes the dreamer. As if the one mind of the waker divides itself into the subject and the object, experiencer and the experienced, the inside and outside.

You are dreaming, and you see a beautiful flower. And you are very happy; it is beautiful, it is fragrant. And you go near and enjoy the fragrance. Enjoyment is within you. The fragrant flower is outside you. This inside and outside, when you wake up, you will see inside you only. Therefore, apart from the mind, there is neither dreamer nor dream nor dream experience. And this is a fact. For this, we do not need to classify it as this is Advaita, this is Dvaita. No, this is a fact.

When we wake up, we do not value anything that is seen in the dream. Similarly, I am giving you an example. You will have to produce your own examples. Supposing there is a student, and the student writes an exam and is very anxious to get the result. The day the results are declared, I have come, and this person rushes to his college. On the board, it is clear that this person has passed brilliantly or nothing comes, which means failed brilliantly. And then this person, a day or two before, he goes to dream because of that anxiety. On the day he imagines, he dreams of the day results are declared. The actual declaration in the waking state will be two, three days later. But because of the anxiety, already the day has come, the future has come. And he rushes and looks up and down; absolutely no name is visible.

You can understand, as much as he feels, if that happens in the waking state, so much depression is also there. Thinking, 'How can I show my face to my father and in front of whom I declared that I am going to pass brilliantly?' And how to commit suicide? Shall I run away and become a monk? So, like this, you will be thinking, imagining. And then he wakes up, what a relief. Today is not the day when the results will be declared; it's the day after tomorrow. And after tomorrow, he goes and sees that actually he passed brilliantly. So you see, accepting our thoughts, which means it is the mind, there is neither dream nor dreamer.

Similarly, when we attain Brahma Jnanam, that is to say, the mind has created that I was a Jeeva, and now I am not a Jeeva, I am Brahman. All these thoughts will come only upon realizing the truth. It is only mind. It is only thoughts. That is why Patanjali says, "Yogaha Chittavrutti Nirodaha."

Moving on, this is the idea, and it is very easy for us to understand the following Karikas if we keep up with this mind. This brilliant example of the study of dream and its relation to the waking are very, very, very important. That is why no philosopher in the West has ever analysed and studied these three states of every creature's experience. As I said, we don't know whether my dog is dreaming. So maybe your dog, you are giving every day dog biscuit. Do you think that if somebody gives you the same biscuit every day, you don't feel bored? And do you think that your dog will not be bored? Then that dog, you take that dog to your neighbouring house or a friend's house, and then the dog is there. Their dog is getting wonderful cakes. And your dog has also got a taste of that cake. Imagine, there is nothing wrong in imagining. And then you bring, you and your dog come back to your house. What do you think your dog is dreaming? "Let my wretched association with this present owner be completely nullified. Let me be my neighbouring person's dog, and let that dog occupy my place." So, we don't know. Really speaking, we don't know what dreams other creatures have got. Definitely, they have got dreams. But we don't know according to their own status. Children dream. Old people dream.

And there is a very interesting fact. It is said in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. So, the whole man's life is divided into three categories: childhood and old age and in between. So, these three people, child, and old person and the in-between person will be having dreams. What type of dreams they will be having? So, Brihadaranyaka Upanishad says that when a child is sleeping and smiling or weeping, he is remembering things, events which had happened in the past birth. When the old man is experiencing misery or happiness, he is remembering or imagining his future. How will it be? Because each one of us knows what good things or evil things that we have done. And these things I don't want. These circumstances I desire. So, the future dreams. How far it is true? Only Bhagawan knows. But I am telling what Brihadaranyaka Upanishad is trying to tell us.

In between, that is whatever experiences we are going through in this world, that is in Jagrat, Sapna world, that dreams are related to this world. Past life for the children, future life for the old people, and in-between people is the present life. So, there may be greater truth because a Rishi is telling that one. We have to verify it, and we can only verify what is in the present state. We don't know what happened in the past. We don't know what is going to happen in the future. But based upon the present analysis, we can confidently say there is a happy child. There is an unhappy child. There is a happy old man. There is an unhappy old man. What do you think their dreams will be? He who led a very good life in the past life, he will be a happy child, and his dreams will be happy dreams. And vice versa. Similarly, he who led a very good life in this life, he will be a happy person. He will be dreaming of a happy future life or otherwise. So, everything depends upon our present state. That is why sadhana can be done only in the present state.

Okay, with this background, we will move on. Now, Karika 65 and 66, they give the same idea.

चरन् जागरिते जाग्रद्दिक्षु वै दशसु स्थितान् ।

अण्डजान् स्वेदजान्वाऽपि जीवान्पश्यति यान्सदा ॥ ६५ ॥

जाग्रच्चित्तेक्षणीयास्ते न विद्यन्ते ततः पृथक् ।

तथा तद्दृश्यमेवेदं जाग्रतश्चित्तमिष्यते ॥ ६६ ॥

caran jāgarite jāgraddikṣu vai daśasu sthitān |

aṇḍajān svedajānvā'pi jīvānpaśyati yānsadā || 65 ||

jāgraccittekṣaṇīyāste na vidyante tataḥ pṛthak |

tathā taddṛśyamevedaṃ jāgrataścittamiṣyate || 66 ||

65-66. The whole variety of Jīvas, born of eggs, moisture, etc., always seen by the waking man when he goes about (in his waking condition) in all ten directions, is only the object of the mind of the waking man. These Jīvas are in no way apart from the waking mind. Similarly, the mind of the waking man is admitted to be the object of perception of the waking person only. (Therefore the mind is not separate from the perceiver.)

The 65th Karika means the whole variety of all the creatures that we experience every single day in our what is called jagrata avastha. Jagarita means jagrata avastha. On the, all the, whichever direction we see. We see above, birds are there. We see below, roots are there. So many roots we eat, you know. Like beetroot and carrot and onion and potato and so many other things. So, then andajan, swadaya. That means the four types of living creatures. But we have to include in the bracket all the non-living. The mountains, the rivers and the forests and everything. Jeevan Pashyatiyan Sadha. All the time, through all these types of experiences, each one of us, we are having in the jagrata avastha.

Then, similarly, the mind of the waking man is admitted to be the object of perception of the waking person only. Therefore, the mind is not separate from the person. What is the central idea? That what we experience is not separate from our mind. If our mind is pure, then our experiences will be pure, meaning happy. If the mind is impure, our experience will be, that is what is called. Manah Eva Manushyanam Karanam Sukha Dukkha Sayoho. So, that is what we have to say. Everything, our experience of the world, either in the dream or waking state, is not different from our mind. Mind means what? Our thoughts. You see something. How do you see? There is a thought. For example, you see a tree. And that perception of that object, when you recognize it. So, supposing there is a tree, there is a dog, there is a man. Just imagine. And you are walking. You see the tree. So, oh, this is a tree. You see a dog. This is a dog. You see a person. Or the person who is taking his dog for a walk or vice versa, whatever it is. So, you see all these three. And they come to you. What? Dog thought. Tree thought. And man thought. These are all nothing but thoughts. And they will not stay exactly in that way. Then it will be, "This is a good dog. This is a good tree. And this is a good man. Or it is bad. Or it is mixed. I wish I had it." So, from this perception, coloured perception, what happens? That means, "I like that." That means, "I must have that." "I don't like it." That means, "I don't want to have this one." This is how the whole samsara is running. That is what Gaudapada wants to tell.

Whatever our experience is not separate from our mind, because all experiences take place only in the mind. Here mind means what? Chitta. Chitta means what? Thoughts in our mind. So, the whole variety of every creature born of either eggs or moisture or womb or that which breaks the earth, trees, etc., Jaraija, Udbija, etc., perceived by the waking person, going about in his waking state in whatever direction, in the past, present, and future, is nothing but the object of the waker's mind, means thoughts. Similarly, the mind of the waking man is admitted to be the object of perception of the waking person only. Therefore, what is the conclusion? The mind is not separate from the perceiver. So, the mind is the perceiver. The mind also is the perceived. And both the perceiver and perceived are witnessed by another Sakshi. And that is how we remember, "Oh, I was experiencing that tree, and that tree was being experienced by me, and such and such thoughts arose in my mind." All these things will come only because of this. So, what is the idea? The experiencer mind is totally different from the seen waking state. What are we talking now? Earlier, what did I say? A dreamer as well as the dream object is nothing but the mind. But remember, you are remembering. So, I was deluded in my dream. I saw a beautiful flower. It was very good. So, our witness, what is he telling? The witness is talking to himself and saying, "I had a dream. And in that dream, I had seen a fragrant flower. And that is a thought in my mind. And I was the dreamer in that dream world. And I liked it very much. So, both the perceiver and perceived are being witnessed upon waking up. That is what memory comes from. So, that is what Gaudapada wants to drive. There is some witness which is not participating. So, the perceiver is a participator. The perceived is part of that participation. But there is a witness who has nothing to do with all these things. So, just like earlier we said that in this waking state also, we divide our experiences as inside. I like it. That is a thought inside. And that is a tree, beautiful tree. That is a beautiful tree is a thought inside. But that is a tree that is outside. It is there outside.

So, what is it? There are three things. The participator and the participated. The subject and the object. And the witness of both the subject and then object. That witness can never be either the seer or the seen. That means either the participator and the participated. That is the first thing we want to see. So, the whole variety of Jeevas born of eggs, etc., always seen in the waking state by the waking person. When he goes about his various duties or things in life, is only the object of the mind of the waking man. So, these Jeevas are... That means I see X, Y, Z. They are nothing but part of my own mind.

Very, very marvellous idea. But what happens for a Jeevanmukta? He sees the same persons. And just like Sri Ramakrishna had seen a public woman. And then what did he see? He saw that the public woman is nothing but Mother Sita. There is nobody else. That is what we need to understand. So, if we understand this much, there are three things. The witness and who witnesses both. The participator as well as the participated. That is what we need to understand.

उभे ह्यन्योन्यदृश्ये ते किं तदस्तीति नोच्यते ।

लक्षणाशून्यमुभयं तन्मतेनैव गृह्यते ॥ ६७ ॥

ubhe hyanyonyadṛśye te kiṃ tadastīti nocyate |

lakṣaṇāśūnyamubhayaṃ tanmatenaiva gṛhyate || 67 ||

67. Both (the mind and the Jīva) are objects of perception to each other. Which then can be said to exist independent of the other? (The reply of the wise is in the negative). Both are devoid of the marks by which they could be distinguished. For, either can be cognized only through the other.

And the same idea is continued in the 67th. Both the mind and the jeeva are objects of perception to each other. That is to say, here jeeva means the participator. So, the participator, the jeeva, cannot work without the mind. The mind is non-existent without the jeevatma or Chidabhasa. And they depend upon each other. The mind, in its turn, goes on getting experiences in the form of thoughts. "That is a tree. That is a man. And this is nature. And there is somebody, this Chidabasa. Oh, now there is a thought in the mind of a tree, of a man, etc." So, jeevatma, mind, and the external world are all dependent upon each other. But there is one who is completely separate. He is a witness, just a witness. The witness is not a participator. That is very important for us. So, the witness is totally separate. If we can understand this, focus upon the witness, and not upon the jeevatma and what it experiences through the instrumentality of the mind.

Ubhehi anyo nya drushyate. Each depends upon the other. They are related. One cannot exist without the other. Karta cannot exist without the karma and kriya. And kriya and karma cannot exist without the experiencer. The experiencer cannot exist without the experienced object. The experienced object doesn't even exist without the experiencer. They are completely dependent upon each other. But there is a witness. Lakshana sunyam ubhayam tan mathe naiva grishyate. So, both are devoid of the marks by which they could be distinguished. Distinguished will come; you can separate only when something is independent. When something is dependent, you cannot distinguish it. Either can be cognized only through the other.

What does it mean? That if there is no experience or an object, there cannot be a subject. How do you know there is a subject? Because there is an object, and the subject is perceiving the object. And without the subject, the object doesn't exist at all. So, you cannot separate it and say this is the subject without the object and that is an object without the subject. Both are completely dependent. Since both of them are completely dependent, then all of them are wrong. This is called triputi in Vedantic language, the knower, the known, and the knowing. It is not functioning in one and the same field of space and time. It is not possible for the individual mind to carry on its life of transactions without these three depending upon each other. Kartha, karma, and kriya. Where the mind is not, there the objects also are not. Where the objects are not existent, the mind also cannot function. Neither of them can be proved to exist because of their own independent factors of inference. Then here comes the crux, and we will stop there. What is it? How do we know the mind cannot exist without the object? And the object cannot exist without the mind because there is something totally independent which is separate, which is non-changing, which is totally independent, eternal witness, and that is called chit. Chidabasa with mind is called jeeva. Jeeva depends upon the world. The world depends upon the jeeva. Without the world, there is no jeeva. Without jeeva, there is no world. But there is one who is a witness of both the jeeva and the world, and that is called chit. Not chidabasa but chit. So, focus on that chit. This is the essence of what we discussed so far. We will discuss this same idea. It is illustrated again and again. So, it should not be difficult for us to understand in the future.