Mandukya Karika Lecture 133 on 13-December-2023

Full Transcript (Not Corrected)

In our last class, we have been studying the 46th Karika of the last chapter, the 4th chapter called Alāta Shānti Prakarana. This peculiar title, Alāta Shānti, is the extinguishing of a firebrand. Gauḍapada, so far, has not entered into the description of that one. But very soon we are going to come to that śloka or Karika. So, in this 46th, we have discussed already.

एवं न जायते चित्तमेवं धर्मा अजाः स्मृताः ।

एवमेव विजानन्तो न पतन्ति विपर्यये ॥ ४६ ॥

evaṃ na jāyate cittamevaṃ dharmā ajāḥ smṛtāḥ |

evameva vijānanto na patanti viparyaye || 46 ||

46. Thus the mind is never subject to birth or change. All beings are, thus, free from birth. Those who know (the Truth) are never subject to false knowledge.

That is to say, here, chittam, a peculiar word, that is pure consciousness, can never be born. Why can't it be born? Because we have to ask, a baby is born and how did this baby come to be born? Then we have to posit that there is a mother, and that is called the cause. From every effect, everything born is called an effect. Every effect, by definition, must have a cause. But supposing consciousness is born, suppose, for the sake of argument, so that means consciousness was not there before, so what could be there? Non-consciousness can never be there. This is the peculiarity; those who have very subtle minds can appreciate this logic.

Even to understand whether something has consciousness or non-consciousness, something is present or something is absent, one requires first awareness. Awareness comes everywhere, like light, whether it is day or night, light is necessary. So when there is plenty of light, then it is called daytime. When we have to produce light, that is called night time. But if there is no light, then we will never be able to know what is non-light. Even to say, I hope you are catching the point, even to say that there is darkness and really there is no such object called either light or darkness, what do I mean? Even to say what is darkness, darkness is not an object apart from or among other objects. Darkness means the inability to obtain knowledge is called darkness. And in contrast, the ability to obtain knowledge is called light. So there is no difference at all, whether it is birth or death, light or darkness, being or non-being, present or absent, one thing must be there, awareness. I know it is there, I know it is not there. So we cannot imagine, even to imagine, there is a time when there is no consciousness.

Consciousness is necessary, awareness is necessary to know that there was no consciousness. And see the paradoxical statement. So a person with consciousness is telling there is no consciousness. It is a very, very obvious contrast. So a person who says there is no consciousness, it cannot be. Because this person, even to say, let me give a small example. Suppose you have known a person, you know a person, Rama. And one day you go to his house to meet him. Either he is there in the house or he is not there. So to know that he is in the house, you require awareness. To know that he is not in the house, that also requires awareness only. If you take this to the logical extension, then you have to say, there is nothing called non-consciousness; it cannot exist. Because one can be positive, whether something is present or absent, only when it is existing. And now about a non-existing thing, one cannot even imagine about it. I hope the point is clear.

So, pure consciousness can never be born because to posit something called birth implies that this thing was not there earlier, there is a cause. And what can be the cause of consciousness? Since there are no two consciousnesses, only one consciousness, similar to two human beings, where the mother is one human being, and the baby is another human being. That idea will come very shortly.

Just as in the earlier examples given, when you are moving a firebrand, so many forms can be created by a skilful person—human beings, elephants, dogs, trees, flowers, anything. But, in reality, there are no objects at all. It is the movement that gives the illusion that something is there, like seeing a house or a man. We have also discussed that the concept of movement doesn't truly exist. If you split any movement into a thousand parts, you see a thousand different pictures. For example, a person dancing—each picture is a separate movement, a still movement. But when these still movements run very fast, our eye, with its property of keeping the last movement a little longer, creates the illusion of a continuous action, such as lifting a leg, walking, running, or dancing. These ideas will be further explored.

Here, Gaudapada is discussing pure consciousness. What is this pure consciousness? The term "chittam" refers to the mind, which is synonymous with consciousness. "Dharma" refers to created beings, often called jeevas or pranis, and they are also considered "ajah," meaning unborn. Anyone with this knowledge, "vijanantaha," will not fall into "ajnana." This was discussed in our last class. In today's class, we will move forward.

Now, for the first time, the word "alatha" appears.

ऋजुवक्रादिकाभासमलातस्पन्दितं यथा ।

ग्रहणग्राहकाभासं विज्ञानस्पन्दितं तथा ॥ ४७ ॥

ṛjuvakrādikābhāsamalātaspanditaṃ yathā |

grahaṇagrāhakābhāsaṃ vijñānaspanditaṃ tathā || 47 ||

47. As a fire-brand, when set in motion, appears as straight, crooked, etc., so also Consciousness, when set in motion, appears as the perceiver, the perceived, and the like.

Indeed, this fourth chapter is filled with profound ideas. Logic is taken to its extreme end to emphasize that the concept of cause and effect is only applicable in this ever-changing world. When we talk about pure Brahman, pure consciousness, or pure chaitanyam, this cause and effect relationship is as false as when you move the tip of a big incense stick. Moving it fast enough creates the illusion of a circle of fire, a triangle, or a square. These examples are simpler than man, dog, etc. The point is that, just like the movements of the incense stick, cause and effect are illusions in our brain. The concept of movement itself is a delusion, but in vyavaharika jagat, the world of practical transactions, many things are like that.

For instance, the sun rising and setting, the moon rising, the stars twinkling—these are all illusions we live with in the vyavaharika jagat. They are there all the time, but our perception of them defines birth and death, even though they are illusions, and yet, we live with these illusions, and it is perfectly okay.

Very funny examples are also there. A person is traveling from Delhi to Chennai, and after 24 or 36 hours, the train enters Chennai city. So immediately, people exclaim, "Chennai has come, Chennai has come!" Where did Chennai come from? Has it suddenly fallen from the sky? It is your perception. Suppose you are deeply asleep. Let Chennai come, Bangalore come, anything come; it doesn't affect you at all. These are all illusions of the mind. Every thought has a birth, a duration, and an end. This is not useless philosophical thinking but very practical.

Somebody comes and says, "I love you," and then you fall into the trap because everyone wants eternal undying love. Undying love is possible only when both the subject and the object are undying. Otherwise, whatever suddenly appears also goes out. This is one way of meditating, called Vidyat Upasana. Meditate upon lightning. One Swami humorously said, "You know, all our meditations, we are experts in lightning meditation. One second, you are thinking about God; the next second, you are thinking about your pet dog. But if you accept Advaita Vedanta, you are only thinking about Brahman in both ways."

Now, here is a beautiful example, and with this, the highest Vedantic truths are being conveyed, especially about cause and effect, which directly refers to the birth, sthiti (existence), and disappearance of this world. One profound thought to remember is that the whole world need not encounter death. When I am dying, with me, the whole world seems to die. When I am born, the whole world appears to be born. And this dying need not be real dying. When we enter deep sleep, it is gone. Transitioning from the waking to the dream state practically signifies the death of the waking world and the birth of the dream world. Keep in mind that there is no fixed order of entering waking, dream, or deep sleep states. One can transition from any state to any other. The entry into any of these states and leaving one particular state is considered the death of the previous state and the birth of the new state.

Now, let's apply the example of Alatashanti, the firebrand, in practical Advaita Vedantic practice. Take an incense stick and light it up. The tip is glowing, and if you move it round in a circle, it gives the illusion of a circle of fire. But the moment you stop that movement, it will be only one single glowing tip. When you don't move, that is called "Ruju," unmoving. When you move, it takes the form of your movement, called "Vakraadhika Abhasam." The word used is "Abhasam," meaning appearance. Remember, appearance is not reality. Alātaspanditaṃ. Just like this, Pandita means movement of the Alata.

Alata refers to a burning tip of anything, be it a stick, an incense stick, or a match, regardless of size. Musicians can be seen whirling round and round, and some individuals jump through large holes created as an illusion. In a circus, a man on horseback jumps through a burning fire and lands precisely on the back of his own horse—an illustrative example. Alatas Panditam Yatha, meaning just like that, illustrates the appearance of subject and object, receiver and received, and experiencer and the experienced. Vijnanas Panditam Yatha is nothing but pure consciousness, unmoving. Here, pure consciousness is compared to a firebrand, and any movement of this pure consciousness is likened to the movement of the firebrand.

It's crucial to clarify that consciousness itself does not actually move. Consciousness is described as beginningless, endless, eternal, and all-pervading, as conveyed in the Isavasya Upanishad. Even when you go to Mars, your consciousness is already present. The awareness seems to outrun all mental thoughts and is already there. In reality, consciousness is not running anywhere; it is omnipresent. And you draw a circle like Lakshmana Rekha and say this is India, this is Pakistan. Where was Pakistan before? It was not there. Where was Bangladesh? Where was Sri Lanka? It was not there. Where were all these five continents before? They were not there. Simply land. Human beings go, draw a Rekha and say this is mine, that is yours. This is what Sri Ramakrishna means. You know, two brothers are quarreling. So that side is your land. This side is my land. If these fellows were not born, the land itself doesn't know. That side, this is this side of me. That is that side of me will not be there at all.

Grahana refers to receiving, and Grahaka is the receiver. It encompasses the relationship between subject and object, experiencer and experienced. Everything, from someone offering something to you taking it, involves thought processes. Deep sleep, however, lacks these movements. The waking state and the dream state are characterized by various movements.

The two powers of Maya are Avarna Shakti and Vikshepa Shakti, both active during the waking state. However, in deep sleep, only Avarna Shakti is present as there is no mind, hence no movement or second entity—just unbroken consciousness unaffected even by time, as time, space, and causation are attributes of the mind.

The main point being emphasized is the nature of consciousness (Vijnana) and its apparent movements (Spandita). The tip of the firebrand doesn't move; it requires someone, such as the mind, to set it in motion. Pure consciousness is one without a second, eternal, and all-pervading, with no beginning or end.

Shankaracharya's brilliant commentary clarifies that when consciousness is set in motion, it appears as the perceiver, the perceived, the receiver, the received, the actor, and the action. Like a firebrand manipulated by an expert who can make it appear as anything, consciousness, when influenced by the mind, seems to take on various roles.

In common experience, magicians create illusions such as turning pieces of cloth into moving pigeons or producing illusory elephants on stage. Similarly, Shankaracharya explains that consciousness alone appears as the perceiver, the perceived, and more. However, it's crucial to understand that consciousness doesn't truly become the perceiver or the perceived; it is the mind that divides and objectifies consciousness. The mind creates the illusion of subject and object, experiencer and experienced.

This appearance is attributed to avidya or ignorance, as clarified by Shankara. The illusion arises from ignorance, causing the mind to distinguish and create divisions within the undivided consciousness. This is a key aspect that will be further elaborated.

This appearance of pure consciousness as the subject and object is because of the movement of the mind. And the movement of the mind, why is it so? Very interesting. Another example we can take: You stand in front of a mirror and go on dancing. You will see a dancing reflection of yourself in the mirror. This is a common experience. But what if you do the other way around? You stand alone and let somebody or some mechanism move the mirror in such a way as if you are dancing. Ah! So it is like that. This mind is a product of avidya. Therefore, that is what he wants to say, that because of avidya. So avidya, as if, sets consciousness in motion. But truly speaking, if you remove avidya, there is no movement at all. It only, that is consciousness, only appears to be moving. So this has been kept. This should be kept in mind. Pure consciousness cannot be born.

What are these movement and stillness? Stillness is comparable to non-birth. There is no birth. Consciousness is unborn, and consciousness is immovable actually because it is eternal. It is everywhere. So if we keep these points in mind, there is really no motion. Really speaking, in consciousness, the ignorant people only imagine illusory subjects and objects which are the basis of our sense perception.

And one small example, we will move to the next Karika. The same object appears in various forms according to the perceiver. For example, there is a sweet. A person who is young, who doesn't suffer from diabetes, sees it as a very desirable, beautiful sweet. But the same thing, when a person has become a pure Vedanti, has lost all his teeth, and his doctor certifies, 'You are so good, you are so sweet. You have become an embodiment of sweetness.' And he looks longingly at it. That is there, but he doesn't dare to think it is a very desirable object. So what about a dog? Do you think it will like it? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Dogs also have their moods like human beings. So this is a point. What is the point? That we have to learn there is only pure consciousness. It is one without a second. It is immovable because it is all-pervading. There is no creation. There are no jeevas. There are no objects. There are no subjects. There are no objects, etc. That is the essence. If we understand, we can move on to the 48th Karika.

अस्पन्दमानमलातमनाभासमजं यथा ।

अस्पन्दमानं विज्ञानमनाभासमजं तथा ॥ ४८ ॥

aspandamānamalātamanābhāsamajaṃ yathā |

aspandamānaṃ vijñānamanābhāsamajaṃ tathā || 48 ||

48. As the fire-brand, when not in motion, is free from all appearances and remains changeless, similarly, Consciousness, when not in motion (imaginary action), is free from all appearances and remains changeless.

This is a repetition of what we discussed already. What does it say? Alatam aspandamanam. Take the firebrand, and you have been moving it in different ways, and the children especially are seeing it. What is this? It is a circle. What is this? It is a square. What is this? It is a triangle. What is this? This is a dog. Like that, you are making your movement. But supposing you just don't move at all that firebrand, ask the children, the audience, what are you looking at? One tip which is burning. That is all they see. So this is compared: Aspanda. Aspanda means that which is not moving. Alatam, firebrand. Anabhasam. There is no abhasa. There is no appearance of a circle, triangle, or man or anything. Just one pointed burning tip. Ajam. That means all these different forms. They are not born at all. Similarly, what is the comparison for? Aspandamanam vijnanam. If a circle, triangle, or man or anything. Just one pointed burning tip. Ajam. That means all these different forms. They are not born at all. Similarly, what is the comparison for? Aspandamanam vijnanam.

When a person identifies himself with this, it is called vijnanam. Vijnanam means here what? Pure consciousness, shuddha chaitanyam. And it is not looked at through the prism of the mind, which is called time, space, and causation. What does it become? Aspandamanam. What is spanda here? Birth, growth, old age, disease, death. These are called spandamanam. Movements. That is why shad urmi, we call it. Six waves. So we have said asti, jayate, vadhate, ipranmate, apakshiyate, vinashyate. So aspandamanam vijnanam. Just like that only one burning point of the firebrand. Anabhasam. That is, there is no mind. Since there is no mind, what remains? Pure consciousness. Tatha ajam. Exactly like the firebrand. And when the firebrand is still, we do not say the birth of circle, the birth of triangle, etc. are there. We don't see them at all. So this birth of the world, birth of the jeevas, that is the whole srishti. That is karya karana sangata. That is cause and effect is completely removed. Here we have got beautiful ideas.

So similarly, consciousness when not in motion, that means when it is not looked at through the limited factor of the mind, that is imagination. Pure consciousness is free from all appearances and remains changeless. Changeless means what? Birthless, growthless, youthless, old ageless, decayless, and deathless. That is what we have to understand. So these ideas of chaitanyam with as well as without motion are only from the viewpoint of our perceiving mind-self. A profound truth. Otherwise, we can gloss over this sentence. What it means? We are talking about two things about chaitanyam. Pure chaitanyam is not born. It is not the creator, and it doesn't undergo any change. So one is changeless, but when looked at through the viewpoint of the mind, it becomes this entire phenomenal experience, vyavaharika satyam. Both these ideas are ideas, thoughts in the mind. This is what Gaudapada wants to drill into our mind. Chaitanyam with as well as without motion. Here motion means change and changelessness. Or only from the viewpoint of our perceiving minds alone. What is the justification? When we go into deep sleep, we don't see. We don't see any birth or growth. Why am I here? Bondage and liberation. All these things will not be there.

So here is the wonderful conclusion. All philosophies, dvaita, vishishtadvaita, advaita, are mind products. The idea of what is called superior or inferior philosophy is also born of thoughts alone. Every school of philosophy is fighting that our philosophy is superior to your philosophy. Certainly, I will argue that vishishtadvaita philosophy is far superior to advaita philosophy. Why? Advaita philosophy doesn't accept saguna brahma. Only nirguna brahma. And nirguna brahma, you can't offer puja. You can't offer breakfast, first-class idli and masala dosa. You can't offer what is called pongal, sweet pongal, and kara pongal. And the whole day they are changing. Tirupati laddu. All these things can never be offered. Because this poor nirguna brahman doesn't have a mouth, doesn't have a tongue, doesn't have anything. But the follower of saguna brahma, from morning, evening, from ananda to ananda, and finally, he will reach Vaikuntha, and he will be enjoying eternal bliss. So from a very practical Vedanta point of view, advaita is good for putting you to good sleep when you are suffering from sleeplessness. Advaita Vedanta, I recommend it. It is wonderful.

But from a practical point of view, and that is what Sri Krishna concludes, 'Sarva dharman parityajya.' Give up all these hodgepodge of ideas. Completely take refuge in me and be a bhakta. And that is what he says for those who are conscious of their body. This Advaita Vedanta, Nirguna Brahman, is extremely difficult for them even to follow. So all philosophies are products of the mind. Mind is maya. Therefore, all philosophies are nothing but maya. And even to say for somebody to be proud that my philosophy is the bestest philosophy is also a product of thought alone.

But when the mind is still, and as in deep sleep, and therefore transcended as in deep sleep, when the self cognizes the self, in the self, the self alone exists, and as such, the pluralistic world of phenomena is no more. That is, vyavaharika jagat will not be there. When there is no vyavaharika jagat, the question of where from it is born, what makes it tick, and what makes it run, and ultimately, where does it go back, where from it has come, where is it going? All these questions are completely useless. How do we know? Because every day experience, every day when we enter into that state called sushupti, are you a philosopher? Do you say I am a dvaitin, vishishtadvaitin, advaitin? Do you say the world is born? The whole problem is when we come to awareness of the world, all the questions, unanswerable questions will start. Until that time, nothing is there.

This is indicated here when the mind is still. And that means what is still? There is nothing called you keep the mind and it is still. Sri Ramakrishna's words are so pregnant with meaning. He says pure mind and pure Atman are one and the same. This is a re-echoing of Patanjali Maharshi's definition of yoga. Yogaha chittavrtti nirodaha. When absolutely there is no chittavrtti, that is called the ultimate state of yoga.

Not only that. He says tada drashta swaroope avasthanam. Then what happens at that time? The jeeva understands when there is no mind that I am pure consciousness. I am the purusha. Self alone exists and as such, the pluralistic world of phenomena is no more. When we don't see the world, the question about the world doesn't arise at all. You don't ask. Thinking about beautiful examples are given by Vedanta.

One is the example of Vandhyaputra, the son of a barren woman. And if you want to know when was he born and who is the mother and how old is he now? So all these things. Beautiful Sanskrit shloka is there. I do not remember it completely. This is Vandhyaputra. So how is he going? He has taken a bath in the cooling waters of the mirage. And he decorated himself with the flowers grown in the sky. He has adorned himself with all these things. And then he has beautiful two horns of a hare are there which he is decorating nowadays. Nowadays many foreigners, they want to behave like werewolves. They are called werewolf. So they purchase a special type of teeth and they clamp them on their own teeth. They look like wolf's teeth and never even see such things. Otherwise, he will be coming to eat you up.

So this whole idea of ignorance, and especially Sri Ramakrishna's profound teachings, are there. Mana eva manushyanam karanam bandha mokshayoho. He says God is with form. God is also without form. That is to say, when the mind thinks about something, it is with form. When the same mind thinks its opposite, that is without form. But he proceeds further. God is beyond both form and formlessness. What does he mean?

What Gaudapada is telling here is that when the mind is transcended, that is the true real form of God. But the same God appears also because Brahman is Ananta. He is Shashwatha. Therefore, there cannot be a second object called the world. So when we see the world, it cannot be anything but Brahman only with names and forms. And perceiving Brahman with names and forms is the special trick of Mahamaya in the form of avarana and vikshepa shaktis.

So here the word motion, spandana, time-space causation, subject-object, bondage-liberation, and sadhana and sadhya, saguna and nirguna, all these are thoughts only in our mind. But remember, they are helpful to us. There are, if we don't have those thoughts, then we will be suffering a lot more. But when we are helpless, for example, the war is going on now. The poor people in Gaza, what are they doing? What are they to do? They are not allowed to go out. And Israel is not stopping. And Hamas will not allow them. In fact, they are deliberately targeting them as targets of Israeli bombing so that they can gain sympathy. And I think they are succeeding in gaining that kind of sympathy.

So these are all thoughts just like you dream, and it is marvellous. The mind is like the greatest magician in the world. And each one of us is the greatest magician in the world. You just slip from the dress of your waker, Vishwa, and put on the dress of Taijasa, and you can play with your ideas. If you are dull, then you will have very dull types of imaginations. That is why the mind is called Kalpataru. Kalpataru means what? Imagine a beautiful cot, very tasty food, a beautiful spouse, and they all come true. But the next moment you think of a hungry tiger falling upon you, and then you get Hai Ram like that. Then others also, we also join them. Ram Nam Sat Hai.

So this firebrand, firebrand means here, what is it? The pure consciousness. But when a person is moving, that is the moment comparable to the movement in the mind, thoughts. This is the comparison. We have to understand this. Ultimately, we go by doing Upasana of these shlokas. We go beyond the concepts of the mind. We have to go beyond the mind. First, we have to hone the powers of the mind. This is called Brahmakaravrutti. What is Brahmakaravrutti? I only want God. I don't want anything else. 100% I want only God. That is called Brahmakaravrutti. God, God, God, like that. So with this idea, the number of Karikas that are coming, nothing but elaborations of these things.

Now we will enter the next two verses.

अलाते स्पन्दमाने वै नाऽभासा अन्यतोभुवः ।

न ततोऽन्यत्र निस्पन्दान्नालातं प्रविशन्ति ते  ४९ ॥

alāte spandamāne vai nā''bhāsā anyatobhuvaḥ |

na tato'nyatra nispandānnālātaṃ praviśanti te || 49 ||

49. When the fire-brand is in motion, the appearances (that are seen in it) do not come from elsewhere. When, the fire-brand is not moved, the appearances do not go elsewhere from the motionless fire-brand. Further, the appearances, when the fire-brand is not moved, do not enter into the fire-brand itself.

न निर्गता अलातात्ते द्रव्यत्वाभावयोगतः ।

विज्ञानेऽपि तथैव स्युराभासस्याविशेषतः ॥ ५० ॥

na nirgatā alātātte dravyatvābhāvayogataḥ |

vijñāne'pi tathaiva syurābhāsasyāviśeṣataḥ || 50 ||

50. The appearances do not emerge from the firebrand because they are not of the nature of a substance. This also applies to Consciousness on account of the similarity of appearances (in both cases).

I will give you a small summary of what we are going to discuss. It will be easy.

Imagine a person is holding a burning incense stick. It is not moving. Imagine this one. Then after a few seconds, he starts moving it. In fact, when we are doing, we move it in a circular way, round and round the figure of Sri Ramakrishna, Holy Mother, and Swamiji like that. When we are moving, it appears, if we do it fast enough, like a circle actually. So like that, a circle is there. And especially if you see Aratrikam with bright lights, this idea becomes much more powerful. So this firebrand without motion, that is the first. Second, there is with motion is there. Then all sorts of forms form in our mind, thoughts. This is a triangle. This is a circle. This is a square, etc., etc. Imagine this one. Then after some time, you stop that incense stick and just put it there. You see only the tip of the incense stick glowing. Imagine this one. So what is it telling? While it is not moving, while you put it after moving, so it is absolutely still. Now in between, when there is motion, there will be all sorts of forms. So imagine this idea of forms, triangle, circle, square, etc., etc. Now these forms, where from they have come? Have they come from somewhere? No. And when you stop moving the fire stick, where do they go? Do they go anywhere? No, they don't also go anywhere. That is the second option.

What is the third option? Do they enter inside the firebrand or incense brand? Do they enter? Three points. When we perceive, when the firebrand or incense stick is moving, these forms like triangle, circle, square, these three examples are enough. Where from they have come? Have they come from somewhere? No. Have they come from the stick, burning stick? No. They are only ideas in our mind. We form a concept, this is a circle, this is a triangle, this is a square. So have they come from outside? No. And when we stop it, will they disappear, go outside? No, they don't go outside. Then what happens? Do they at least enter into the fire stick? No, because in the first place, there were no forms at all. In the fire stick, there are no forms. In our minds, because of the movement. Movement is a movement in our mind. This is the important point. Similarly, what does Gaudapada want to say? So therefore, these three points, these forms do not come from outside. When it is being moved, when it is stopped moving, they don't go away from that. And neither do they enter into them, because these are all thoughts only in our mind. Yes, our mind is producing the thoughts, our mind stops producing. So they arise from our mind, they enter into our mind, but it has nothing to do with them, incense stick or fire brand. This is the summary of what we want to say.

When the fire brand is in motion, the appearances, square, etc., do not come from elsewhere. When the fire brand is not moved, appearances do not also go elsewhere from the motionless fire brand. Further also, the appearances, when the fire brand is not moved, do not enter into the fire brand itself. Beautiful idea. One is, are they coming from outside? No. Are they going away outside from where they have come? No. At least, have they come out from inside the fire brand? No. So when you stop moving it, will they enter back? Like, you know, you're watching a house, a man inside the house comes out and after some time he goes back. That is possible, but it is not possible because these are appearances. Appearances mean not reality. Not reality means the question of where from they have come. Only we can assume something has come which is real, which is a vastu, either from itself or from outside and whatever comes from outside, it will go away and whatever has come from one's own self, they will go away. So if something is coming out of me, it will ultimately go back into me. If something is coming from outside, it will go away outside also. I hope the idea is a marvellous idea. So this idea, where from all these objects, square objects, circular objects, or triangular objects or all sorts of objects means human beings, non-human beings, etc. Where from are they coming? Are they coming from outside consciousness? No. Are they going away from consciousness? No, because earlier we discussed that point, there is no consciousness at all. This is all nonsense. There is nothing. These are all thoughts in the mind only. I will stop here.