Chandogya Upanishad 4.3.4-4.3.8 Lecture 133 on 30 August 2025 Q&A
Question 1: When Are Nirguna and Saguna the Same vs. Cause and Effect?
Student A: Maharaj, in these cause-effect Upasana, the aspirant is always led from Saguna Brahma and then to Nirguna Brahma.
Maharaj: Correct.
Student A: So Nirguna becomes the cause, Saguna seems like the effect. In the Gospel, Thakur says Brahman and Shakti are the same.
Maharaj: Correct.
Student A: So when do we see Nirguna and Saguna as cause and effect and when do we see them the same?
Maharaj: You see, even at the Saguna level, there would be no division. Who is talking about Saguna? The mind is talking. Even in your Sushupti, the mind doesn't function. What to speak of when you become Ishwara?
You see the point? All this Saguna and Nirguna division is done by whom? It is all done only by our mind. When we are at the Prakriti level, body-mind level only, then only it is done, not otherwise. You see how wonderful it is.
In the gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, just now I got that, the master is telling this: "Existence and non-existence are attributes of Prakriti. The reality is beyond both." This is very appropriate to what we are discussing. This existence means Saguna. Non-existence means what? Nirguna. There are attributes of Prakriti. Prakruti means what? Mind!
When you don't have mind, who is going to question whether it is Saguna or Nirguna? Are you going to talk about Saguna and Nirguna in your Sushupti? Not to speak of Ishwara, even at the Prajñā level also, they don't try to think whether it is Saguna or Nirguna, isn't it?
That is why it is said
सहस्रशीर्षा पुरुषः सहस्राक्षः सहस्रपात् ।
स भूमिं विश्वतो वृत्वात्यतिष्ठद्दशाङुलम् ॥१॥
Sahasra-ṣīrssā Purussah Sahasra-ākssah Sahasra-Pāt |
Sa Bhūmim Viśvato Vrtva-ātya-ṭisstthad-ḍaśa-āngulam ||1||
That ātya-ṭisstthad-ḍaśa-āngulam is the Nirguna aspect. Because the moment you raise the topic of Saguna, in what background you say it is Saguna?
Student A: Background of Nirguna.
Maharaj: Ahh, and how do you say Nirguna?
Student A: Background of Saguna.
Maharaj: See, how wonderful it is. These are all tricks of the mind. Let us do our Sadhana, then a time will come when we say everything is God. "brahmārpaṇaṃ brahma haviḥ" that is the essence of this entire Upanishad.
Question 2: Understanding Prana at Different Levels
Student A: Maharaj, one more question. From Prana comes Annam and through Annam comes Prana again. So, it seems like the understanding of Prana itself can be at the gross level, at the subtle level and even at the causal level.
Maharaj: Even at the gross level, Prana is the giver, Prana is the also receiver. Simple example, a farmer in a village, he wants to eat food. He has to cultivate land or not?
Student A: Yes.
Maharaj: For that he requires Prana or not?
Student A: Yes.
Maharaj: Prana means energy. So, for that what is he going to do? He cultivates the land, tills the land.
Student A: Yes.
Maharaj: And of course, from the Adhidaivika level, the proper sun, proper moon, proper rains at proper seasons in sufficient quantities have to come.
Student A: Yes.
Maharaj: That is what Taittiriya Upanishad. So, "Tripti Riti Vrishtau." Tripti means satisfaction. Vrishti means rain. As soon as sufficient rain falls, Tripti will come. Less rain means less Tripti, Atripti. More rain means again the same, Atripti. All the crops will be washed away.
Student A: Yes.
Maharaj: So, who is giving? Devatas give in the form of, bestow their grace upon all of us in the form of the sun, the moon and all the seasons, rains, dry season, spring season, everything. That is how Bhagavan is bestowing his grace on his own creation.
Maharaj: So, you require Prana to cultivate the, then as a result of it you get Annam. Then you eat Annam. And what does Annam do? It is eaten and it is digested and energy is distributed. What is not digested is thrown out. All this is done by whom?
Student A: Prana.
Maharaj: Prana only. Five functions of the Prāna, Apāna, Vyāna, Udāna, Samāna . Okay. Where do I come in?
Student A: Unnecessarily.
Maharaj: That is why the 15th chapter of Bhagavad Gita.
गामाविश्य च भूतानि धारयाम्यहमोजसा ।
पुष्णामि चौषधी: सर्वा: सोमो भूत्वा रसात्मक: ॥ १३ ॥
gām āviśya ca bhūtāni
dhārayāmy aham ojasā
puṣṇāmi cauṣadhīḥ sarvāḥ
somo bhūtvā rasātmakaḥ
"I am nourishing the entire universe in the form of the sun and moon." And then he comes, he manifests in the form of fire to cook that food. Cooking is not alwaysnecessary. Fruits need not be cooked. Though I have seen, if you cook apple it gives a marvellous taste. Have you ever eaten cooked apple?
Student A: Yes.
Maharaj: But we as our ancestors did not discover fire, then what were we eating? But the same fire manifests in the form of Vaishvanara agni, Jathara agni. So, God gives rains, etc. God produces the food and the food is digested by the same God in the form of hydrochloric acid, etc. Where do I come in, in between?
Student A: That's the problem.
Maharaj: That is why we are having this class. So, Sri Ramakrishna says, "I and mine is ignorance". "Tumi tomar", You and Yours. That is called knowledge.
Question 3: Is Ganapati Atharvashirsham an Upanishad?
Student B: I was reading Ganapati Atharvashirsha and while reading that Ganapati Atharvashirsha, the mantras are exactly the same as mantras from other Upanishads. Is Atharvashirsham also an Upanishad?
Maharaj: Let me tell you now. Not a secret.
What is the meaning of the word Upanishad? Shankaracharya beautifully analyses it. "Upa-ni-sat"
"Upa" means that which takes us nearer to God. Brahman.
"Ni" means absolutely, without the least bit of doubt, by destroying everything that stands between me and Brahman, which is called Ajnana.
"Sat," that which, what is called, totally eliminates, destroys ignorance.
So, is Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna Upanishad or not?
Student B: Yes.
Maharaj: Works of Swami Vivekananda Upanishad or not?
Student B: Yes, Maharaj.
Maharaj: Ramana Maharshi's teachings are Upanishads or not?
Student B: Yes.
Maharaj: In fact, they are better Upanishads because which works do you understand better? Their works or these Upanishads we are discussing?
Student B: Their works.
Maharaj: So, we are standing, "I am not an ordinary person. I read Upanishads okay." Ramana Maharshi said the same thing. Ramakrishna said also the same thing. We are giving a secondary place to them. We should give, you know, what should a wise person do? Whatever helps a person better, quicker, in a better way, that he should adopt. Isn't it?
Student B: Yes, Maharaj.
Maharaj: That is the answer. Yes, this is also an Upanishad. So, that's why it goes by that name.
Student B: And attributed primarily to the Lord Ganesha.
Maharaj: So, all the Upanishads are the knowledge gained by the grace of God. So, this person must have been the Upasaka of Ganesha. He obtained, just like Yajnavalkya was an Upasaka of Suryadeva. And that is from Suryadeva only he got this Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. The whole Shukla Yajur Veda came out from this Suryadeva Upasana, Hayagriva Upasana.