Mandukya Karika Lecture 078 on 23 November 2022

Full Transcript(Not Corrected)

Om Jananem Sharadam Devem Ramakrishnam Jagadgurum Pada Padmetayo Sritva Pranamami Mohor Moho Om Bhadram Kanne Vishnuyama Devaha Bhadram Pashyam Akshavirya Jatra Sthirai Rangai Stushtu Vagum Sastanubhi Yashema Devahitayadayo Swasthina Indro Vridhashravaha Swasthina Poosha Vishwa Vedaha Swasthina Starksho Arishtanemi Swasthino Vridhaspati Rudhadhatu Om Shanti Shanti Shanti Hare Om Om Oh Gods, may we always hear with our ears what is auspicious. Worshipful ones, may we with our eyes always see what is auspicious. May we live our allotted life, hail and hearty offering our praises unto Thee. May Indra of ancient fame bestow auspiciousness on all of us. May the all-nourishing potion be propitious to all of us. May Garuda, the destroyer of all evil, be well disposed towards all of us. May Brihaspati ensure all our welfare. Om Peace Peace Peace be unto all. We have completed the first chapter of the Mandukya Upanishad called Agama Prakaranam. And there are three Prakaranams. Prakaranam means chapter and all these Prakaranams along with the 29th shlokas, 29 shlokas in the first chapter are composed by Gaudapadacharya. This second chapter has 38 karikas. Karika means shloka. Shloka means here explanation of the 7th mantra of the Mandukya Upanishad, especially towards Prapancha Upashamam, that which occurs in the 7th mantra in the first chapter, that is complete cessation of duality, Samsara, this whole world. And that is named as Vaithathya. Vaithathya means falsity, seemingly appearing, not really there. What is not really there? This world is really not there. It appears. How do we know for that? Gaudapadacharya especially relies on the example of the dream. As soon as we wake up, we know that whatever we experienced is absolutely false. Regarding this, some explanations have to be given, which we will come to that. So Vaithathya means not real. Not real means false. Another word for false means that which appears as something else, like we see a snake, so long as we are not aware of the true nature of that snake, which is nothing but a rope. And because of the semi-darkness, we mistake it. So there is an external condition called semi-darkness. There is internal condition, that is to say, there is, first of all, we fear and that is why we see the snake. If we don't fear, perhaps we will not see it. We may see something else. We may see a garland. We may see a bed stick. We may see a streak of water. Or if a person is a snake catcher, he may even become very joyful. But another condition is if we have to mistake one object as something else, that superimposed object must have been experienced by us previously. That is the second condition. Third condition is there must be a resemblance between the object upon which we superimpose and the object which we superimpose. But when the light is brought up, the cobwebs in our brain will also be clear. But we will see that the whole thing is only unreal, seemingly real. Seemingly real means it appears to be real. Remember, when we are using this word seemingly real, it is only after we know the truth. Because while perceiving the snake, our idea is it is absolutely a snake. At that time the question, I am seeing a seemingly real snake, that idea will not come. Only upon knowing the truth that it is really a rope, then still this rope for various reasons may appear to be just like a snake. But the effect of the so-called appearance of the snake, even after the light is brought out, will not be affecting us any longer. And that is the condition of a Jeevan Mukta. So in our last class we have seen that in the first two shlokas of the second chapter, which is called the chapter of falsity, mithya. Vaitatya means unreal. Tatya means real. Vaitatya means unreal. The seemingly real. That means this knowledge will come only upon knowing that what we say the world is in reality Brahman. This world, like the snake, is superimposed upon that rope. What is that rope here? Brahman. But the light of knowledge, Jnana Deepam, should be there in order to understand it. For that, Gaudapadacharya takes the example of a dream. Very, very interesting. Shankaracharya, while connecting the second chapter with the first chapter, he makes a remarkable statement. What is the connection between the first chapter and the second chapter? This logically connecting one idea, previous idea, with the following idea, it must be logical. One second you can't talk about an elephant. Suddenly you say, I went to the market and I started eating a sweet. There is no relationship. There must be some relationship between our talk previously and our talk right now. Such people are called rational people, logical people. So what is the rationality? Because in the first chapter, the Shruti, the scripture, proves conclusively and remember, everything depends for us on the scripture. Nobody should question the scripture. One may follow the scripture. One may decide not to follow the scripture. But nobody can question the scripture because the knowledge we get from the scripture is something which we can never get in this world, especially through the five sense organs. So what are we talking about? The unreality of this universe, of this samsara, of our body, of our mind, can be proved not only by taking the teachings of the scriptures, Shruti, Upadesha, but we can also prove it from our day-to-day experience through logic. And from now onwards, logic is used in the second chapter and the Advaita is another word used in the seventh mantra of the first chapter. And to explain, the third chapter is created by Gaudapadacharya and that is called Advaita Prakaranam. And to counter various people's objections, the fourth chapter called Alatha Shanti Prakaranam is created. Here is a very important point for us to remember. When we are talking about the people, Purvapaksha, what we need to understand is, all the Purvapaksha means doubts which we ourselves entertain in our own minds. Why? Because really speaking, while writing the commentary, both by the Gaudapadas Karikas and by the explanation of Gaudapadas Karikas by Shri Matsyankaracharya, the Purvapaksha, opponent's views, really there are no opponents present, but anticipating such doubts which can arise in our unthinking minds, these great souls themselves raise the points on our behalf so that we don't need to think. And after a long time, I should have thought, this what Shruti says is not logical. Why did I waste my time? No. Once you study it properly, even the future doubts will not come. That is the important point. The important point is that these great Acharyas, Gaudapada Acharya, Shankaracharya, Vivekananda Acharya, they anticipate our doubts and then they raise the objections before our mind even can anticipate them, even after 10 lifetimes, so that they do the homework for us. This is how we can answer these opposing views, doubts, which can arise in our minds. That is the beauty of these Vashas of Shankaracharya and Gaudapada Acharya, which we are going to talk about. Now, what was the point raised? That every human being undergoes through three states. We need for the scripture to tell, that is the waking state, the dream state, and then the deep sleep state. This is our day-to-day experience. Comparing this day-to-day experience, certain important derivatives have been drawn through our experience. I have already pointed out, but again and again I will be pointing out. Right now, I will point out at least three or four points and always we must keep those points in front of us. And then, as I said, it is not only because the scripture is telling, our very thinking mind, if we can really train our mind to think properly, thinking of the cons and pros, what is positive and what is negative, and compare and contrast, we can ourselves come to that conclusion. But these Acharyas know that we are not that clever, that we are not that deep thinkers, that we are lazy people, what is called sluggishness in our thinking process. So, out of compassion, they themselves raise these points. And as I said, I am going to remind now and also in future whenever occasion demands. Here are a few points. The first point is, whatever we experience is not me. I see a tree, it is not me. And we all know that. We all behave like that. If my house is on fire, I don't say I am on fire. Even when we are watching a movie, I see that on the screen there is a terrible fire. And we also know there is no fire. Because, how do we know? Because if there is a real fire, if we think that there is a huge bonfire, we will be the first persons jumping over the audience, trying to escape that cinema hall or drama hall, whatever. But we don't do it. And then it rains or a water tank is brought and the fire brigade quenches the whole fire. And neither we know that the screen doesn't become wet. How do we know? Because we will not see the next scene if water is seen on the screen. So, we know whatever events happen, we enjoy them thoroughly because they are so closely resembling and representing the waking state experiences. That is our day-to-day real life experiences. But we enjoy them because the same thing is represented on the cinema, in the drama. But we thoroughly enjoy as what? As witnesses. That is an important point. So, what is the first point? Whatever I see is not me. And we know that. My car, my house, my garden, my property. But for all practical purposes, we behave as though I have lost myself. If I lost my house, if I lost my car, if I lost my bank balance, as if some part of me has become less. But nothing becomes less. We remain 100% the same. This is the first point. Whatever I experience is not me. Second point, related to the first point, whatever qualities, characteristics, gunas belong to the object we experience, belongs to that object, not to me. So, the continuation of the first principle, I experience anything outside world, I am not that outside world. This we know. But when it comes to the body and my hand, sometimes I am the hand who is suffering. My hand is scratched, injured. Who is injured? I am injured. My hand is getting pain. Who is experiencing pain? I am in pain. Same thing to the mind also. Some event happens and I become unhappy and I feel I am very unhappy. But this happiness and unhappiness belong to the thought that arises, which I am witnessing. But because of my deep synchronization, identity with my mind, mind means thoughts, everything in the mind is a thought, imagination is a thought, and even the emotions are thoughts, different types of thoughts, but we identify, I am happy, I am unhappy. Remember, this mind is called in Vedanta, Antahkarana. This Antahkarana, whatever emotions or results are produced as a result of its experience with the either external world or its own thoughts, different thoughts. For example, somebody shouted at me in the actual world and I feel insulted. And then it arouses anger, hatred, and then so many other feelings, I am unhappy, I am suffering. We forget, I experience the thought, so I am not the thought. And this happiness, unhappiness is another thought, I am experiencing that, and precisely because of that, I am neither happiness nor unhappiness. I am the eternal Sakshi, witness. But this knowledge has to be cultivated and that is called Sadhana. So what is the first point? Whatever experience is not me. What is the second point? Whatever qualities belong to the experienced object belong to the object, not to me. That means I am only witness, so long as I don't identify, I am neither happy nor unhappy. That brings another doubt. So am I like a stone, not experiencing happiness and unhappiness? At least when I am in this realm of Maya, I experience sometimes happiness, but here I am like a stone. No. So much Ananda is there. How do we know? If you remember the first chapter, you can understand how vividly, beautifully, graphically the deep sleep has been described and then it is our everyday experience. We don't need any scripture, any guru, any person to come and tell us, Oh, you are sleeping, you are such a happy person in your deep sleep. There is no need, because as soon as we get up, we say ourselves, I was so happy. It is our daily experience, not only once in a day, but several times in a day. Even if you try to fall asleep for a few seconds during my talk, then you wake up and say, how much rest I got, how much happiness I got. You will understand that one. Why do I say you are happy? What is the reason? Because you must have fallen asleep because you are bored to death of these repetitions. That means you became so happy till you came back awake and again you have to listen to the same talk. That proves, what proves? That you were unhappy and you wanted to be happy. You escaped into that state. You came back and you are very happy. I know all those things, so I allow them. In any case, I am helpless. But the ultimate truth is, we have today, tomorrow, after a billion births, we all have to come to this Mandukya Karika. You cannot escape. Somebody like me will be taking classes. If you doze now, you will have to hear it again and again. Anyway, I am just making a little bit of fun. I hope you won't mind. So what is this? Whatever I experience, we experience, is not I or we. And whatever, no object can be experienced without some qualities. Therefore, those qualities belong to the experienced object, not to me. This is the second point. The third point is very important. I said, every day, we go through three states. Waking, dream and dreamless. And when we are in any particular state, for example, when we are in the waking, this alone is real. The other two states are not real. Similarly, we have to extend it intelligently. When we are in the dream, we never say, nobody ever says, I am dreaming. That dream state is absolute real state. Therefore, in comparison, contrasting the other two states are unreal. So when we are in deep sleep, waking and dream are unreal. Now you extend with your own thinking power. Now what is the point? The third point is, then what is reality? How do we know what is reality? The definition of reality. What is the definition of reality? Whatever is real, is always real. It will never become unreal. So for eight hours, this is real and the rest of the time, it is unreal. Such a thing doesn't exist. That is why it is said, Trikala Abadhitam Satyam. So this is the third point. Whenever we are in a particular state, the other states are unreal. That means, from one point of one state experience, the others are unreal. Completely unreal. They are not even a small reality. That means, all the three states are unreal at different states of experience. Then what is the reality? That is the fourth point. What is the reality? You are saying, waking is unreal and dream is unreal and deep sleep is unreal. Then what is real? There is one who says, I was in the waking state, I was in the dream state, I was in the deep sleep state and that I never changed and that is the only reality. These are the four points. Again, whatever I experience is not me and every quality that I experience and without qualities, no object can be experienced. So whatever quality I experience belongs to that experienced object and not to me. I am not that quality. Second. What is the third point? Every state is unreal. Therefore, all the three states are unreal from the viewpoint of other states. That means, all the three states are completely unreal. What is the fourth point? To say that I am going through these three states, I must be uncontaminated while experiencing that state. I participate in that state. For example, in the waking state, I am the sthola sharira and the sokshma sharira. While I am experiencing the dream state, I am the sokshma sharira and while experiencing, the sthola sokshma sharira has become one in the deep sleep state, but one I, which remains ever separate from all these three states and goes on witnessing without undergoing any change, that is called trikala abadhitam satyam. I alone am real. If you have understood these four points, then the second chapter becomes as easy as we say that eating a cake. And we have already dealt with two shlokas or two karikas entering into the third karika. Now, one more point. I will remind you that not only the unreality of this world, world means that we experience in the three states because there is no world without experiencing in one or the other of the three states, there is no world at all. So, when we are experiencing this world, it means three states jagrat, swapna and sushupti. Then, by comparing and contrasting, we know that I, the one, was witnessing all the three without being affected because I remain always exactly the same. One important point. Keep it again. Let us say this is the fifth point that every time we experience something, there are two I's. I means aham bhava. One is the one which says I am the seer, I am the perceiver, I am the experiencer. This is called participant I. But there is one just experiences as if I am seeing somebody else. That is the real chidabhasa. So chidabhasa, the reflected consciousness, divides itself into two. One as the experiencer and another as the witness of the experiencer. So, this point, keep in mind. With that, we have seen two karikas where Gaudapada wants to first explain to us which we already know about the state of the dream and then we are judging the dream from which point always we have to keep in mind when we are dreaming we never say this is a dream. When we are in the deep sleep we don't even think about either waking or dream. Therefore, only when we are in the waking state in comparison that was a dream state. And there is no need for any scripture to tell because our behavior and our understanding itself proves it amply. What does it prove? Yesterday night, I went to USA and I came back. I had a wonderful time with my children. But when you wake up, you know it's impossible because the distance is too much and the time necessary was too much and I don't find myself there. That is one reason Gaudapada gives us. We find exactly where we were when we went before the dream and when dream breaks we find exactly in the same state. Even if a beggar dreams I become a multimillionaire or a billionaire by winning a big lottery ticket he finds himself under the same tree as the same beggar. And we know it is only a play of the imagination. It is not real. And then why do we need to study this dream state? Because we think waking state is real and I gave the reasons for that also. Why do we think? Because everyday upon coming out of the so-called dream state and deep sleep state we find in the same house, same place, same known people, same age, everything is same as if it is one continuous dream. For that the counter argument is suppose somebody has exactly he dreams the same dream and everyday from waking state he enters into the same dream state. Yesterday whatever he dreamt for example he dreamt himself that he is working in the office and today he finds himself there then that person will get confused that what is the truth because is that the waking state or is this the waking state? As a Chinese philosopher used to say one day he said I went and dreamt I was a butterfly. Then he woke up. Then he said was I a butterfly dreaming that I am in the waking state or am I a philosopher thinking, dreaming that I was a butterfly. Because if it is the same dream then there is no difference between there would be no difference between waking state and dream state. So how do we equate this waking state? One reason I have already given what is that? Whatever we experience that is not me. Therefore what is reality? Me. And since I experienced waking state that is not me. But how do I come to that conclusion? Because my dear sir everyday I experience so many dreams. While experiencing the dream state I don't say it is a dream state. I say it is a real real waking state. But as soon as I come out of that state into this waking state then only I say in comparison with this that was unreal because I experienced it. Should we not extend the same logic and say what was the logic? Since I experienced the dream I thought it was real so long I was there. But when I woke up even though I experienced and thinking it is real in the dream now I know it is not real. Similarly might it not be that what I am experiencing in this waking state is exactly like the dream because I am experiencing it. That is one of the important reasons. So this is what he wants to say that you experienced everything you went to a distant place you travelled in a car and you went to Swargaloka in your dream and here you go to USA that is Swargaloka Guloka, Swarga, Kashmir but there is no difference at all. Not only that supposing you went to Swarga in waking state and you met all what is the speciality of Swargaloka every girl you meet will be only what is called Miss Universe because this universe misses them. But when you come back Oh! I was so happy. What are you telling? I was so happy. What are you telling? I was happy. Then what are you now? I am so unhappy. Because the whole thing no different from dream vanished even if you go to Brahmaloka and then come back. That means any temporary experience whether it is of one second or a billion, billion, billion Yugas in the Brahmaloka whatever is experienced in time is absolutely of exactly the same value it is no different at all. And that was the essence of the first and second Karikas in the second chapter of the Vaitadhya. Don't think that your waking state is different. But the very second state second statement is also important for us to understand. What is it? In the dream everything is changing and we don't like change. What does this mean? It means supposing in the dream so you are eating very excellently prepared sweet and then what happens before this sweet was eaten you are anticipating only but you are hungry and after eating you felt very happy. How long? Is that happiness continuing? No. Because immediately your stomach is full and you cannot think of a sweet and then of course when you wake up say that I was happy I am not happy. That is what we do upon waking up from the deep sleep I was very happy because I did not know anything which proves you don't need any object to be very happy because in deep sleep there are no objects and yet you are most happy but if there are objects you are much less happy. So there is a state where we can be very happy we don't need any objects then where from the happiness is coming? We have to say from within ourselves. That is the logic. We are not talking about Shruti but the Shruti also confirms it. So what is the point? Waking state is absolutely no different. Why? Because happiness changes into unhappiness birth changes into death. Of course we don't know death changes into birth that scriptural teaching only we have to believe but definitely a living thing becomes a dead thing everyday we are experiencing we are killing a vegetable or an animal for our pleasure we know that this was a living creature it has all emotions and it can love us it can hate us it can help us it can injure us and yet we kill it for the sake of our tongue the tragedy of the beauty is once this so called taste this food goes down the tongue then the stomach doesn't know what is sweet or sour or anything for the sake of momentary sensation we do not hesitate to sacrifice so many animals what a horrible thing it is we only have to imagine if you are an animal you will understand if somebody says I love you I want to kill you I want to eat you then you will understand what is the feeling of these helpless animals which we are going to kill anyway I am not preaching what is called vegetarian food I am only telling highlighting the condition of the all these things now what is it in the dream happy person becomes unhappy unhappy person becomes happy continuously it is changing is it not the same thing here also baby is born he is changing everyday every minute he is growing up becomes young then middle aged then experiences of happiness and unhappiness and one day we say that person is dead so nothing is really permanent this impermanency is an equal experience both in the dream in the waking as well as in the deep sleep because you have to wake up at some point it may be 10 minutes it may be 5 seconds or it may be 7 hours 8 hours 10 hours whatever it is but it will change because it will change into waking waking changes into dream dream changes into sleep it is continuous changes going on and we cannot assign time at this time from this time to this time we will be in the waking and from this time to this time dreaming state from this time to this time deep sleep state nobody can say any state can be experienced at any given time what is the point? point is everything that is changing now what is the point? the point is how do I know everything is changing? because if I am also changing then I will never know that there is something called unchanging so the law according to logic deep thinking rational thinking is to experience and know what is non-changing what is changing there must be somebody that person must be conscious and he should not change and then that person alone can say about whatever he is experiencing they are all changing but I am unchanged this is called witness Sakshi and therefore a Sakshi is not what is changing because the reality is what is changeable always changes what is unchangeable never changes these are marvelous logical points but the Shruti that means Edas that means Upanishads that means Bhagavad Gita that means all the great sayings of the great saints not only they repeat the same thing but they also explain this with various examples etc. etc. etc. so even the Shruti says in my last class I have mentioned about it that there is a beautiful biggest Upanishad called Prahadaranyaka Upanishad and there is a saying there that in dream a person experiences he is travelling by chariots he is going to so many lokas etc. and there are so many paths some paths are smooth some paths are difficult and and etc. that is being quoted here in this third Karika besides the absence of chariots etc. is heard of in the Upanishad it means Prahadaranyaka Upanishad from the standpoint of logic they say that the falsity arrived at thus by logic is reinforced reiterated by the Upanishad in the context of dream also what does this mean? that first of all we see so many things cars in the olden days chariots etc. remember Shankaracharya supposed to be in the 8th century and his grand guru his guru was Govindapadacharya and Govindapadacharya's guru was Goudapadacharya supposed to be either from Bengal or Orissa anyway so he must be much earlier at least 50-60 years earlier if not more and in that time there were no cars but the so called cars what is a car? an instrument for travel a little bit faster maybe but that doesn't mean faster travel means pleasant travel it doesn't mean it always ends in happiness whether we walk or travel by a horse or a donkey or a buffalo you know in villages this buffalo those who take the buffaloes for grazing etc. they will be sitting on one buffalo carrying them and maybe sometimes they are much more happy because their imaginations are not flaring up with a 100,000 things seen in the YouTube so people see chariots horses pathways soldiers travelling the kings travelling etc. and all these things can be experienced in the dreams just like in the waking state and upon waking up we know there are no chariots no roads no travel nobody to travel and somebody feels I have travelled somebody is eternally witnessing there were these thoughts these dreams in the form of dreams concrete thoughts are called dreams in the mind and I have nothing to do I had a dream then I was experiencing waking state then I experienced deep sleep state the point is that Sakshi plays more importance hold on to him and then identify yourself with him that is the whole point so this is being said it is logical what is it yesterday night a person dreamt that he was travelling in chariots upon waking up and all those means of travel do not exist he gets up from the bed exactly after dreaming exactly at his and this definitely proves Tena means this dream experience definitely proves that is the seemingly real experience that is Mithya experience where Swapne and and when you wake up when you come to waking state and then you recollect and you know that Abhava they did not exist you are thinking they existed your experience you thought at that time real now we know it is all unreal so the Shruti Priyadharani Kopanshat which will come later on declares the non-existence of the chariots etc therefore Shruti itself is supporting this view that all the three states that every Jiva experiences every human being not only that every Jiva Muscato also experiences but it is the human beings only who compare contrast think back and hopefully derive some wisdom so the Shruti also is supporting that Mithyatvam of every dream why is it because once we understand that when we come out of dream it is a Mithya and when we go into dream the Mithyatvam of the waking state and deep sleep state equally we will have to understand it so it is said by the seers that means Manishnaha means thinking people wise people who can think deeply who can reason who can use logic we can get some wisdom from deep sleep state and we can use logic and we can use logic and we can use logic and we can use logic and we In your deep sleep, 7 hours, 8 hours, 10 hours, you sleep like a log. Where is the question of you are not even aware I am existing? Let alone your feelings towards me, they do not exist. Alright. At least 16 hours, do you love me? Out of 16 hours, so many hours will go cooking, cleaning, thinking about the children, thinking about her parents, thinking about her enemies, thinking about so many people. Is she thinking of you? That means what? Here is the truth. When there is a particular thought in our mind, it excludes for the time being every other thought. What is an object? A thought. Therefore, when one particular thought excludes the whole universe, accepting that particular thought, and the moment second thought comes, that destroys the first thought, the moment third thought comes, it destroys the second thought until we remember again the first thought. So, how many billions of thoughts are floating around in the mind of that so-called loving wife? I am only giving an example. It has nothing to do with wife. Same thing applies to the husband also. So, how much time do you love? Perhaps you think of me for a second. You know what is the funny thing? If anybody can think for a few seconds, keep the same thought, that person is doing really dharana, 12 seconds. And if the same person is thinking 12 into 12, 144 seconds, that is called Dhyanam. And if somebody is keeping the same thought, 144 into 12, that is called Samadhi. Now you imagine, if anybody foolishly declares, I love you, and you are in my mind all the time, such a great lie is the worst lie in the whole world. We should say truthfully, whenever I think of you, I have some positive ideas about you. That would have been much better there. So, the Upanishad also is telling that there are only two things in this world. Shankaracharya, as I mentioned in my last class, he has written a work called Brahma Nanavali. In that he says, there are only two things, the experiencer and the experiencer. The experiencer is always changing. The experiencer alone is remaining. So, whatever is experienced is changing. Because it is changing, it is unreal. It is called Mithya in language. So, just as the dream is Mithya upon waking, the waking is also Mithya, as soon as we go back into either dream state or deep sleep state. Now, we move on to the fourth shloka. अन्तस्थानात्तु भेधानाम् तस्मात् जगरिते स्मृतम् यथातत्र तथासोपने समृतत्वेन भिध्यते As the dream objects are unreal even in a dream, so also, because of that very reason, the objects in the waking state are also equally unreal. I have already discussed this point. So, we don't need to spend a lot of time here. अन्तस्थानात्तु भेधानाम् See, you are travelling from India to USA. So much difference is there. So much distance is there. So much time is needed. How long will it take? A few seconds to reach USA, to reach the moon, to reach Mars. And then you come back and even if you go to Mars, you will find somebody has slapped you. There is a possibility. Or somebody has fed you very nicely something. The point is, as soon as you wake up, you know, it is all my imaginations. तस्मात्, in the same way, जागरिते स्मृतम् Remember, in your waking state, whatever happens, just like in the dream state, so long as the dream lasts, we think that is real. So long as the waking lasts, we think it is real. And in the other state, the other states are unreal. यथा तत्र, just as here in the waking state, तथा सोपने Exactly the same, just as यथा सोपने तथा जागरत यथा जागरति तथा सोपने There is absolutely no difference. There are also the experiencer and the experienced. The experiencer is unchanging. The experienced is called world. Similarly, in the waking state, the waker. Waker means here the साक्षि He alone, the experiencer alone is real. But what he experiences, it is unreal. Remember always, there are two I's. Not EYE, the letter I. The participant is always changing. I was a baby. I was a young man. I was a middle-aged person. Now I am an old person. That I is what he is experiencing. I am an old person, etc. But there is another I, permanent I, साक्षि I. This very body, mind, to make it explicit. It was thinking 50 years earlier that it was a baby. 20 years later, it was thinking I was a young person. After 20 years, it was thinking I was a middle-aged person. And now it is thinking I am an old person. Therefore, absolutely no difference is there. The dream objects are unreal. In a dream, when upon waking up, so also because of that very reason, the objects in the waking state are also unreal. When? When we experience them, when we enter into dream states. This is what we need to understand. So, one or two points, just to make them clear. Certain conditions are necessary. What is the condition? To think that waking state is real, the waker, the experiencer must be in the waking state. How long are the waking state experiences real? So long as he is in the waking state. That is the condition. Similarly, the person must be a dreamer in the dream state. That is the condition. So long as he thinks that I am experiencing this. But we don't call him a dreamer at that time. He himself calls. And if I am taking a class, I will also call him not a dreamer, but a waker in the dream, if I am taking dream class. So, just as things are changing and there is a witness, who is the witness of the changing things, and just as the unchanging witness is needed, so also an unchanging witness is needed in the waking state also. This is what is being told. We move on to the fifth shloka or karika. Inasmuch as the diverse things are found to be similar, on the strength of the familiar ground of inference, the wise people say that the dream and waking states are one. One means what? Both are equally unreal. Who says? The thoughtful persons. If I was a thoughtful person, if you were a thoughtful person, we would not need this Mandukya Karika class at all, because this class itself is happening when? It happens every Wednesday, and it is happening now, as soon as it is over, it has already changed. Class was happening, was not happening, class was happening, class happened, and that is over. Somebody is witnessing, so the class is necessary for what? To become Manushyana. Real, real thinkers who understand, who can think, but because we are unable to think, these great people give us their thoughts. At least, we should make those thoughts our own. So what is this fifth Karika telling? Swapna as well as Jagartha. Both states of experience. Swapna means dream, Jagartha means waking. Manushyana ahuh. About these two states, what do the wise people say? Ekam ahuh. From the point of reality, both are the same. What is it? They are not real. Why? Veda namah samatvena. All the differences that we find, the experiencer, the experienced, and the instruments of experience, and the past, present, and future, all these Vedas are there. In dream also, waking state also, there is a baby, became a young person, became an old person, and the person is dead. All these differences, and there are differences between any given two objects. Samatvena. The experiences, both in the waking, as well as in the dream, absolutely samatvam eka. No difference from where? From the viewpoint of the reality. That means they are not real. And then, Gaudapada adds, Prasidhenaiva hetuna. That is, because of the well-known reason. Hetuna. By the reason. What reason? Prasidhenaiva hetuna. Well-known reason. And what is that well-known reason? This we will talk about in our next class. May Ramakrishna, Holy Mother, and Swami Vivekananda bless us all with bhakti. Ramakrishna.