Mandukya Karika Lecture 107 on 14-June-2023

Full Transcript

Gaudapada is trying to establish through reason that creation is only a seeming creation. Just as a snake is a seeming creation, transformation called Adhyasa. Really speaking, Brahman cannot undergo a change. In the next few karikas (shlokas), he is trying to establish this fact. It is impossible that Brahman can be the cause of creation or Brahman can also manifest as this world. Either way, milk getting transformed into curds or a rope appearing as a snake. One is called Parinamavada, another is called Vivartavada. Both do not apply to Brahman. Why? Because the scriptures tell us that he is one without a second. He is Nityaha, eternal. Eternal means changeless. Changeless means beyond time, space and causation. That is one. Then we need a little bit of logic. Suppose something changes. Say for example, the rope changes into a snake. Then the rope will no longer be a rope. It will be a snake only. And what happens? That which is eternal, what change can it happen to eternity? If eternal remains eternal, then there is no change. If light remains light, there is no change. There is only one possibility. Light can only change into darkness. The eternal can only change into temporary. The infinite can only change into finiteness. But nobody will agree. Even a worst devotee would not agree with this because a devotee's idea is God is all-powerful and if he changes, what becomes? Just like me. God is very compassionate. What does he become if he changes? A cruel being. In fact, many people think like that. This is a very interesting argument.

There was a rabbi in America more than 70 years back. He had a very loving daughter, 8 years old. Probably a very nice child. And suddenly, through some disease or accident, the child died. And the whole world of this rabbi had come crashing down. So until that time, he was talking about God. He was praying to God. He was dreaming of God. He was a very great believer. Then he became a changed person. And he wrote a book "If God Is Good, Why Is the World So Bad?". But if God is good, he is helpless. Or he is very compassionate, but he doesn't have the power. Either he doesn't have the knowledge, or he doesn't have compassion, or he doesn't have the power. Because a person who doesn't have cannot help us. So the doubts came because of his mortal experience. We are applying that logic here. If the infinite can change, it can only change into finiteness. If the all-knowing changes, it becomes ignoramus. In fact, it would be the greatest ignoramus in the world. Because all-knowing becomes no-knowing. All-powerful becomes not at all powerful. So these contradictions, our reasoning power cannot really accept it. We are talking from the reasoning power. The important point is the opponents have raised a hue and cry. What is the basis of your statement about God? Scriptures. And what are the scriptures telling? That God is Brahman. Brahman is infinite. You are the Atman. You are Brahman. You are infinite. You are birthless. You are changeless. You are infinite. You are eternal. You are beyond time, space and causation, etc. And at the same time, you are saying that God was not the cause of this world. Then where from it has come? Because you and I are experiencing it. If Gaudapada asks, what is the basis of your statement that this world is a real creation? Vedas (scriptures). There are so many scriptures. Practically every Upanishad tells, especially Taittiriya Upanishad.

तस्माद्वा एतस्मात् आत्मनः आकाशः सम्भूतः । आकाशाद्वायुः । वायोरग्निः । अग्नेरापः ।

अद्भ्यः पृथिवी । पृथिव्या ओषधयः । ओषधीभ्योऽन्नम् । अन्नात् पुरुषः ॥

etasmadatmana akashah sambhutah . akashadvayuh . vayoragnih . agnerapah. |

adhbhyah prithivi . prithivya oshadhayah . oshadhibhyo.annamh . annatpurushah. ||

Many times I quoted that mantra. So, this is the basis of the opponents. Opponent means not any opponent, but our own deeper aspect of our own mind, which raises the doubts. I see the world better than I see God. In fact, I do not see God at all. I see only the world. And what is the world? Sometimes good, sometimes bad. What do you mean by sometimes? 99% it is bad and probably 1% good. How do you say that? So, if this world is not created, I am not created. If I am not created, then I am deluded. I am a madcap. I am struggling. I have a family. I have parents. Everything in this world I see has a cause. And this is Advaita's view. And these statements are in the scriptures. Then, what does Gaudapada wants to say? Gaudapada puts, it is very true that parallel lines never meet. That is the teaching for the beginners, babies, students, small school students. But the same parallel lines meet in eternity. That is the abstract thought. And several theorems are also derived from it. Similarly, there are some shlokas in the scriptures which are only meant for the beginners. So, read the whole scripture and try to understand it correctly. For the sake of lesser understanding people, the scriptures tell, Yes, you are created and world is there. And according to your karma, karma phala will be there. If you are suffering, you are responsible. And if you are happy, you are responsible. These are all true. But in the end, you are also accepting that God doesn't have anybody to create him. Because if God is created, what does logic say? Anything created will undergo a change. Creation itself is a change. Destruction is another change. And we don't want. That means there is somebody who is changeless who is not born.

Then what is the meaning of "The birthless one appears to be born". On the cinema screen, we see so many pictures and we know that it is not real. But this waking world is 150%, 200%, 300%, 1000% real for us. This is what he wants to say.

What can Advaitins answer? Whether it is Gaudapada or Shankaracharya or today's Advaitin, what can he say? They say that everyone wants not to die. But that includes other conditions also: let me never become old, let me always remain healthy, let me never go through any difficulty, let me be the wisest person on earth, let others be unwise and ignorant, let me be absolutely all-knowing. How long? forever. The most important thing everyone wants is never to be unhappy and always wants to be 100% happy. That is called Ananda. If it is less than 100%, it is called Sukha. Sukha and Dukha go always together. These are the essence of what Gaudapada wants to convey. That supreme reality called Brahman had never become this world because there would be a problem if he becomes this world. Then he changes and what is changed cannot retain its nature. That means like milk becoming curds. Then milk is no longer available. So Nityaha becomes Anityaha. Then Ananta becomes Shanta.Then Paramananda becomes Sukha, Dukha, Swaroopa. This is the only possible change. This is what he wants to convey.

In reality while you are experiencing a dream, nobody can convince you that you are not experiencing a dream. You are 100% convinced that it is the reality. But when we wake up, then even the person who is trying to convince me is also me. I was arguing with myself. Similarly, when we wake up from this dream, which we now call Jagrad Avastha, then we will know what is our real nature. Until that time, there would not be even the remembrance. Remember this difference. When we wake up from dream, we do remember that I had a dream, that was my imagination, that was not real, though I thought it was real. But when we wake up from this Jagrad Avastha, then we would not even remember I had a dream called Jagrad Avastha. The idea that I was born will not be there. Why? Because just as in dream, we remember something had happened, think it was real. But when we go into deep sleep state, we don't remember either waking state or dream state. We do not even recognize the existence of waking or dream state. So also, the mind will not be there. Where there is no mind, there is no memory. Where there is no memory, there is no dream, there is no waking. Not only that, there is no memory of waking up. That also will not be there. That is a stunning thought. But that is what Advaita boldly declares.

In this 23rd, we discussed, Bhutathah, really, Abhutathah, or imaginatively, unreally, Shrujyamanevapi, Shruti Samana. That is, the Shruti is talking both there is a real Shrushti and Shrushti is also unreal. As I just now mentioned in the introduction, for the beginners, Shrushti is real. For the advanced, there is no Shrushti at all. Because if Shrushti is real, there is no way to get out of this world. If this world is real, you cannot make the real unreal. You cannot make the unreal real. If this world is real, the experiences we are having in this world will always be real. You can never change them. But every second we are struggling either to get rid of unhappiness and then to retain what happiness we have. This is one. And we are never satisfied with what happiness we have. We want better happiness, higher happiness. How much happiness? Until I attain infinite happiness, I will not rest. What is the condition for infinite happiness? I am giving you the logic. I hope you will enjoy it. If there are 10 plates of food and I want to eat all the 10 plates of food and at this moment I can only eat hardly one plate full of food, my stomach is small, the only way I can do it is I must develop a stomach which is equivalent to all the 10 people. Extend it. That means if I want to enjoy the whole world all the time, the world is practically infinite, I must become infinite. That is the only way I am going to enjoy. And if I become infinite, I become all the objects. If I become all the objects, I don't need to experience them because I am that. Therefore, unless I become one with Ananda Swaroopa, there is no way for me. That is what we are struggling every millisecond to be living for eternity and to be enjoying infinite happiness. The only way is I must be immortal and I must also become infinite and then only infinite happiness can be attained. This is the logic.

If this world is real, there is no way to get out. If it is unreal, nobody wants unreality. What is our problem? Our problem is we don't think this world is unreal. Then what is the definition of unreality? Vedanta uses a peculiar word called Mithya. Even today most people do not understand what is the meaning of Mithya. Mithya means not non-existence. Because if something is non-existent, we can never experience it. What does it mean? It means that which is changing always. That is called Mithya. That which is changing, that is Mithya. This is the most important way of understanding what is Mithya. I am happy. Now I am not happy. But I want to be happy always. In this world it is not possible because time means change. Change means happiness to unhappiness, etc. Anyway, we have an unconscious idea that we want to be infinite and eternal. And why is it this unconscious desire? Because that is what I am, is what the scriptures tell. And the scriptures are also telling, even while we are experiencing this world, thinking that we are bodies and minds, that is not the truth. Just as even while we are experiencing a snake, we think that it is a real snake. As long as we experience, we never think that it is a rope. But all the time what we are seeing is nothing but rope. Rope has never become a snake. Real or unreal. Bhutathaha, Abhutathaha. A rope has never become.But what happens from my point, so long as my mind is there, and it is a miserable mind, and it is an ignorant mind, it is ignorance caused by less of light, caused by similarity, caused by past experience. Whatever the reason? The problem is in my mind, not outside. A rope has never become the snake, and the snake is not going to go away. If the snake is real, it is not going to go away. If it is unreal, it need not go away.

In this 23rd mantra, Bhutathaha means really, Abhutathaha means imaginarily, unreally. Shrujyamane, that this world is created. Shruti, Samaha.Both these statements are there. In some places, really God has created Akasha. Akasha created Vayu. From Vayu came Agni, then water, then Prithvi. That is what it is telling. But the same Shruti, after some time, what it says, this is all because of your fright. This is a psychological trick. When we are terribly frightened of a snake, if some stupid wise fellow comes and says that this is not a snake, this is a rope, we will not believe him. Because so long as I am convinced it is a snake, it is a snake. Anybody who talks otherwise, he is only otherwise. So, what if the person brings light? Then, oh, I have mistaken. Really there was no snake at all. So, if somebody can bring light, that is okay. That is what the Shruti wants to say, that now I will be like a person, if I tell you there is no creation. You will not believe me. First, I have to create faith, your faith in me, that I am your well-wisher. Yes, yes, there is a real snake, but there is a way out of killing this situation. I have got mantra. I can kill this snake or I can do something. And then you will develop faith. And then afterwards, slowly, he will take you near and he will ask you that you hold that snake because he says this is, you know, is a water snake because I have seen it many times here and I am also catching it. So, he will go and catch it. He will be playing with it and he will ask you and gingerly you touch it and then it doesn't do anything to you. It is as good as, better than a water snake. And then your fear goes. And then he will bring light. So, the Shruti is adopting this psychological method. It goes along with our present understanding. The world is real. Sukha, Dukha are real. Purva Janma, Para Janma are real. Karma Phala are real. Everything is real. So, be a good person, do dharmic works, attain Punya, go to higher Lokas and then what happens? I believe the scripture, I perform the rituals, I go to a higher Loka and I enjoy it. My faith becomes very strong. Yes, I did not know. There is Indra Loka, Chandra Loka, Prajapati Loka, Brihaspati Loka, then Mahaloka, Janma Loka, finally Brahma Loka or Satya Loka. They are all true. I experienced it. Then tremendous faith will come. Whatever the scriptures say, absolutely real. And once, like what is called madcap, until he believes his counsellor, it may take several years, there would be no progress. Once the madcap trusts, this person is my greatest well-wisher, he can help me and then slowly, slowly means once that trust is established, that takes the longest period and then afterwards, very easy, he will make him convince, such and such an incident, you misinterpreted it, you kept it in view, but it is all just a memory, it is not true. This is how psychology works. This is how Shruti also works. Our experience, present experience, means what? The present experience will be denied later on. But our faith in the present experience is affirmed right now. Remember this very clearly. The world is existing. Even a Jeevan Mukta will see the world. Even a person who knows this is a rope can see the snake. If the rope is resembling this snake, the experience being the same, but the knowledge is different. This person, it is a real snake. The other person, it is not a real snake. Similarly, when a magician produces, the magician is in a position to know that what he is creating is only a trick of the hand, but the experience he can also see. We can also see and the audience also can see. But then nothing happens because at the end of the show, when the lights come on, nothing happens. There is no battle. There are no blood-stained things on the floor. The carpet is not spoiled. Everything, absolutely nothing has changed. So, that is how the Shruti slowly wants to take us. And if we understand this, it is very easy to understand this Karikas. So, Shruti first definitely tells us there is creation. It came from God. Why does it tell? Because it wants to emphasize what is the cause, the effect will be the same. And what is the cause? It is divine. Therefore, the effect also will be divine. So, each soul is potentially divine. But I don't feel true. But if you believe that you came from God, you cannot be other than divine. Then to manifest that divinity, anyway you desire to be divine.

We all desire to be God. No logic can deny it. There is a way and there are so many millions have passed that way. Kabira says, O Kabira, you are still sitting on this side of the Ghat. How many hundreds of people have become saints, they have crossed, they attained liberation. We see that also. When we see that one, then we say, perhaps they are right and I can also attain to that state. So, nishchitam yukti yuktancha yath tadbhavati nayitra. But Gaudapada wants to say, when you are studying these scriptural teachings, you will have to not only take them literally, because you cannot change, because that knowledge is apaurushaya. There is no way. A human being can commit a mistake. But a sage can never commit a mistake. But it has to be understood in the right spirit. And to understand that in that right spirit, we require logic. That is why he says, nishchitam, have complete faith. But yukti yuktancha, try to understand why there are two contradictory statements. Earlier, the world is real. Later on, it is all maya. And whatever the Shruti says must be real. So, if we understand the teachings of the scriptures with the help of strong right reasoning, then we will find there is what is called samanvaya, harmony. There is no contradiction at all. That is what we discussed in our last class. Then Gaudapada wants to reinforce this argument. I am not saying it. I am only quoting the scriptures.So, he quotes several scriptures.

In the 24th karika, Gaudapada is taking two quotations from scriptures. What is it? Iha means in this world, in our experience, there is not many. Who is telling? Amnaya. Amnaya means Shruti. Amnaya means Veda. And how is it telling? Iti means etc. etc. Many are there. Many statements are there. Indra, sometimes he appears in that form. Sometimes in this form. He can take any form he likes. But all the forms are like your Kanaka Mriga in the Ramayana. All forms are nothing but Maya Mrigas. Then who is real? Indra alone is real. A person may take many roles and play very successfully. All those roles are only make-believe. But the person, he cannot be different. He will be always the same. That is one. Another quotation. He whom the scriptures are lauding, praising as Neither born nor dead. All these he who cannot be born. He who is birthless. That means he who is beyond time, space and causation. Because of the power of Maya. That supreme reality called Brahman. As if born, not really born. Because it is Maya. Like the magic tricks of the magician. Magician is always there. But his magic is only a show. It is only a Manobhranti. He is not deluded. But he makes people like us deluded. That is what he will say. Through such scriptural passages as There is no multiplicity in this. In this means our experience. That is one. Indra through Maya and so on. We know that the Atman though unborn appears verily to have become many. Only through Maya magic. What is that Maya? Our mind. What is our mind? Time, space and causation. These quotations come from ............And then the second quotation is very important. Indra is considered the residing deity of the mind. In one version. In another version. Chandra is the residing deity of the Chandra is born of the mind. And therefore he is the residing deity of the mind. So Indra is considered as the residing deity of the mind. We have seen in the Gospel. Indra is considered as the residing deity of the hands. Power of the hands. So philosophically to say that this Indra can take any form because he has that power. But Indra will be Indra only.Whatever forms he takesit is nothing but what is called a magical show. Nothing is here.

So Gaudapada says that the only meaning here is that, that is the so called seemingly contradictory statements of the Shrutis is that the reality though unborn seemingly multiplies itself into a pluralistic perception like our dreams. This means that creation is not factual. Similarly, there are so many hundreds of statements but when we study them and stop then we think that anybody who says this world is created is right and anybody who says it is not created is mad.But you study further you go to the end come to the Upanishads really the real Vakya what do you say? Tattvamasi. You are Brahman. What is Brahman? He is unborn. Who are you? I am born. How can the unborn be one with the born? Jivatma. There is only one way. Really Jivatma is not born. Seemingly born then it is okay. The snake is nothing but the rope. If we say how can a snake be really a rope? Then when the light is brought Oh, I thought there was a snake. Now I know there is a rope. This snake cannot be born without the reality of the rope but once light is brought it is only I mistook I made Adhyasa superimposition and this is what he wants to tell in this.

Then we move on to the 25th because the argument runs in the same way. Again by the negation of the creation the creation is refuted. What does it mean? By negating that the world is unreal these statements in the scriptures for the what is called beginner student that this world is real and God is the creator and he has created this world they are refuted. Causality in Atman is denied again by such a statement as who can cause it to pass into birth? So we will discuss it in briefly. This is a quotation from the Isavasya Upanishad 13th mantra. There is a very difficult mantra almost it is an un-understandable contradictory statement.

अन्यदेवाहुः संभवादन्यदाहुरसंभवात् ।

इति शुश्रुम धीराणां ये नस्तद्विचचक्षिरे ॥ १३ ॥

anyadevāhuḥ saṃbhavādanyadāhurasaṃbhavāt |

iti śuśruma dhīrāṇāṃ ye nastadvicacakṣire || 13 ||

Our earlier sages they have taught us crystal clearly and dheeranam they understood it correctly. Dheera means those who are endowed with wisdom they are all wise people and this teaching is coming traditionally. Iti sushruma My father told me and his father told my father and my great grandfather taught it to him or my guru told me and my guru was taught by his guru this sampradaya is coming. So this sambhuti means what? I told you don't go on raking your brains. According to Shankara sambhuti means Hiranyagarbha. Who is Hiranyagarbha? Hiranyagarbha is the first creation born out of Ishwara. So just briefly to recollect how does Brahman become this world seemingly not really. First as it were he becomes Ishwara called Saguna Brahma and this Ishwara contains everything in him like Karana, Karana Sharira in what is called cosmic causal world and he slowly becomes grossified manifests himself as something more graspable and that becomes Hiranyagarbha. Who is Hiranyagarbha? Collective minds all the minds not only human minds not only God's mind Indra, Chandra, Varuna, Brahma, etc. God's minds of the various gods but even a mosquito even etc any prani has got a mind. Remember when there is a living creature two things you have to remember that living creature has got a mind and it has also got chaitanya. So there is a buddhi however small it is manifested and there is a prana. prana, buddhi, chaitanya they always go together and so the collective minds universal mind that is called Hiranyagarbha and that Hiranyagarbha further grossifies into called Virat that is the totality of everything that we experience through our five sense organs in simple words called the world is called Virat. This is my body I am an individual called Vishwa but my body, your body a mountain, a river, a forest, a mosquito's body, a bird's body, a plant's body, an animal's body any body, anything a meteor, a star billions of galaxies the whole thing is called Virat impossible even to imagine but all the totality of the minds it is all mind borne mind borne means knowledge borne that is why before you can create a new recipe first there should be knowledge this is tasting like that that ingredient tastes like that the other ingredient tastes like that if I can combine in a particular way so much percentage of this so much percentage of that some what is called Brihaspatis are there in this world but what do I mean by Brihaspati Brihaspati means where the wisest teacher in the world wisest person in the world is called Brihaspati but when we see some stupid fellows in Sanskrit they are called Brihaspatis they seem to be wise they are not wise.

so for example payasam has to be done and how much milk it is about one fourth of a liter and how much sugar has to be put 2 kg of sugar has to be put and how much time it should be boiled that it should be boiled for 2 hours so and then how much cardamom we should put at least half a kilo how many cashew nuts have to be put another half kilo you just imagine there are people like that there is no proportion there that is called how much rice how much milk how much sugar how much cashew nuts how much cardamom everything if it can be put in the right proportion like McDonald does it that is called a buddhiman and it is very tasty so if somebody first of all has to sit and think I know that combination let me try this combination and when we try that combination it can come out we have to experiment but the point is knowledge is necessary that is why Hiranyagarbha represents that knowledge what can I create how can I grossify the whole thing but even Hiranyagarbha is a born first born not first born he is like the son Virat is like the grandson who is the grandfather Ishwara that is why Brahma is always depicted as what with four faces why four faces because somebody explained to me once funnily four faces because his creation is shouting at him four ways he has to look after everybody because he is the creator therefore four faces he needs and by watching these gimmicks of his children and grandchildren he has become so tensed up his whole beard has become completely white so that is Ishwara for you so imagine that is the Ishwara so in Puranas he is called Brahma in Vedanta he is called Saguna Brahma in Tantras he is called the Divine Mother and in normal language he is called God simply God so Ishwara is the Karana the final cause and from him he becomes grossified as Hiranyagarbha and he is grossified as Virat what is the point here he says Hiranyagarbha Sambhuti is Hiranyagarbha in the Ishavasya Upanishad 13th Mantra Hiranyagarbha is the first one born out of Ishwara so after introducing Hiranyagarbha Upasana the Ishavasya Upanishad goes on to say that it will not definitely lead you to Moksha if you do Upasana of Virat it will not lead you to Moksha if you do Upasana of Hiranyagarbha it will not lead you to Moksha if you do Upasana of Ishwara it will not lead you to Moksha how do we know because in the Taittiriya Upanishad Bhrigu Valle first Virat Upasana Anam Brahmeti Vyajanat then Hiranyagarbha Upasana Pranam Brahmeti Vyajanat Mano Brahmeti Vyajanat and Vijnanam Brahmeti Vyajanat and he did not attain Brahma then what did he do Anandam Brahmeti Vyajanat that is called Saguna Brahma that is called Ishwara and then he says he has to go beyond that because even Anandamaya Kosha is not Brahman at all because it is a Kosha that is how so this is how it is denied at first it is accepted then it is denied that is what in this Karika the Udapada is quoting Sambhute Apavada first this Hiranyagarbha is introduced then Apavada that is it is denied to be the highest reality because Sambhavaha that means creation Prathishidhyate is completely denied by the scriptures Kon Enam Janayet Iti Karanam Prathishidhyate then what is the cause what is the cause the question itself is illogical because what is the cause of this unreal snake if any foolish person is foolish enough to ask after knowing even after knowing that this is not a snake but this is a rope what is the who is the responsible for my seeing this the birth of this snake then if he is a wise guru like me he will take a big stick and give a big blow and then he becomes enlightened he sees light everywhere and then he says the question is wrong the answer is also wrong that is to say if anybody says that who is the cause of this universe Kon Enam Janayet who is the cause of this what does the scripture wants to say if the Karya is denied Karanam is also denied when there is no snake the cause of the snake is also denied and when Karana and Karya are both denied what remains the question itself will be completely removed just as in dream why are you beating me and or somebody is beating you why are you beating me oh I have been employed by somebody what is called gunda master to beat you up and what could be the reason why he wants to employ you I want to know and that fellow says I don't know you meet that fellow and my boss and he may tell you then you wake up are you going to ask who is the boss why did he do it it is exactly like that it is by the negation of the creation the creation itself is refuted because when there is no creation there is no universe that means causality in Atman is denied that is Atman is not having any is not a cause because if the world has come out Atman will be the cause like milk becomes the cause of curds so to ask such a statement that who has caused this world or who can cause it to pass into birth who can make the Atman unborn Atman into this world is completely negated because even there is no world who is going to ask I and you we are in the world and then now our very being in this world is completely denied when I do not exist where from have I come where is this question at all it will not come I hope you are getting the logic this is a simple logic actually but the problem is it is ok in the Mandukya Karika classes but as soon as the class is over and then my family problems will crop up and I am going to have problems like that that is the problem that is why you better become a monk you will not have any problems you will have enough time doesn't matter at least mentally you become like that so this is the meaning of it and then we have got also the other quotation Todapada wants to reinforce by saying there is no creation at all of course we will not understand there is no creation because we are attending the classes are we attending classes in what is called after becoming Brahman or trying to become Brahman we are in the world therefore world is real but we think it is real because it is creating problems have you noticed it if I am very happy I need not attend any Mandukya Karika classes at all if I am not getting sleep yes definitely I will attend these classes.

So in the 26th mantra what does it mean Shruti is again a quotation it is not this not this in which Shruti famous on account of the incomprehensibility of Atman negates all dualistic ideas described as the means for the attainment of the Atman therefore the birthless Atman alone exists and not any duality Todapada is simply bringing Shruti quotations to say because oh my friend you brought quotations for the reality of creation I am also bringing quotations for the non-reality of the creation so what do I want to say I agree when you are beginner when you are the power of your understanding is much less everything ha ha ha it is real but when you have developed that capacity to understand better through Karma Yoga etc. when your mind becomes pure I am telling you that Neti Neti what does Neti Neti mean it simply means I am not the gross body I am not the subtle body I am not the causal body why two times because one small explanation according to the scripture Prihada Nika Upanishad the whole universe or Jagat is divided into Murtaprapancha and Amurtaprapancha manifest world unmanifest world so one Neti is to deny the manifest world the other Neti is used to deny the unmanifest that is what Sri Ramakrishna means God appears to be with form God also can be without form but God is also beyond both the manifest and the unmanifest I changed if you notice it God is beyond form and formless means God is beyond how long do you say it has a form when you are seeing the manifest when do you say it is formless when you are seeing the experiencing the unmanifest and when are you doing this when you see a newly made chapati that is called manifest form of dough and you see it has not come out really round and then what do you do you again make it a lump that is called unmanifest chapati and then after that what do you do you try it is not coming out throw the whole thing out of the window and head to a nearest restaurant and you enjoy there that is what he wants to say sa eshah is Atman neti netetiv yakhyatam in this Brihadaranyaka is famous statement neti neti twice to deny the manifest as well as the unmanifest nihnu de yathah so what is it negates it is not true by saying neti neti you are saying it is real I am saying no it doesn't exist it doesn't exist neither the murta nor a murta neither manifest nor unmanifest sarvam agrahya bhavena everything should be understood as dualistic idea and deny it hetu na ajam prakashate only when we deny all the dualistic ideas I am not the body all the dualistic ideas I am this and you are that will disappear then when I am not this mind this is denying this is my mind this is your mind then in deep sleep we say I am not even the karana sarira you are also not karana sarira and after denying everything what remains don't say nothing remains that turiyam alone remains that is the ajam nirvikalpa. we will talk about it in our next class.